I would agree on your points apart from the ring of power having any great bearing upon the battle. Elrond seems to be more a healer and a councillor in my eyes. Just because hes an Elf and he served in the Last Alliance doesn't make him a great fighter. Not all Elves were good warriors. I think in skill Aragorn surpasses him, having spent most of his adult life fighting wars under the flags of Rohan and Gondor. Not to mention his training as a Ranger and his training by the Elven Warriors.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
I'm not even gonna bother with this anymore, I've gone over how the Three Elven rings of power were not offensive tools sooooooo many times. The Elven Rings were things of beauty, they had the power to preserve life and the havens of the Elves to slow the weariness of the world and heal its hurts. They didn't give Elrond any god like abilities in combat at most it would allow him to exhbit more control over his healing or far seeing but it wouldn't aid him in a fight against Aragorn. As for skill with swords the two are pretty evenly matched, I would notion that Aragorn has the slight edge when it comes to swordcraft. Elrond taking more the path of the scholar.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
The elven rings of power (if Gandalf's ring is to be of any indication) give extra energy and strength of will. It is also indicated that Elrond may have used the ring to create the wave that washed the Nazgul away from Imladris. However, I agree that its powers are not offensive, but the slight edge they may offer is worth noting and taking under consideration I believe.
Narya the ring that Gandalf bore did indeed rekindle the hearts of men and save the wearer from some weariness. But even so, in a straight out sword battle its a very minor factor. Tolkein himself in letter #131 that the Three Elven rings were "directed to the preservation of beauty" a quote which almost directly sways against them to be of any use in bolstering strength in battle.
Another quoted passage again suggests they are most certainly not weapons of war
"So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination or hoarded wealth, but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained."
Another quote from Letter #119
"The Three Rings of the Elves, wielded by secret guardians, are operative in preserving the memory of the beauty of old, maintaining enchanted enclaves of peace where Time seems to stand still and decay is restrained, a semblance of the bliss of the True West."
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Aragorn spent most of his life fighting wars, under the banner of both Rohan and Gondor
Aragorn son of Arathorn is born in 2931 of the Third Age,
in 2956 Aragorn meets Gandalf and fights in wars for Rohan and Gondor. If we take the first mentioned date we can work out Theoden of Rohan's age at this point in time to be about eight years old. (Born in 2948)
In 2993 Eomer is born in Rohan by this time Aragorn is about 62 and has faught in many wars and conflicts. I only draw this comparison to show the sort of life Aragorn has had, how many battles he has been in compared to other Warriors such as Eomer of the time.
Whilst Elrond is obviously of the First Born and has lived a long life, he is more of a healer and a preserver thus is the Elven way, Elrond is a powerful magician.
Whilst a capable warrior during the war I would think that in swordcraft Aragorn would prove superiour should the two ever square of. Aragorn has the benefit of Elven lore and teaching, a life of wandering the roughs and wilds of the world including trips far into the East and South exploring all of Saurons movements. He fights in many wars for Gondor and Rohan before Theoden King is even in his teens and before Denethor II of Gondor even is Steward (the title is held by his father Ecthelion II at this point).
No indeed by experience levels Aragorn was of the most learned and hardy of men and I believe he could defeat Lord Elrond in a sword battle.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
I know this stuff. Just a thought though: if the wave was indeed created with the ring was it not being used for preservation? Plus I think that capability could very useful for other uses. Preservation of beauty can easily be seen as preservation of nature and creation, meaning that it must have influence over nature. However, I believe this power over nature was used together with Elrond's Maia powers and his natural skill at the Art. A deadly combination if I may say so.
Maia powers? Admittedly somewhere far down the line Lord Elrond has some Maia blood, but he was no Maia. No lesser Ainur from the West. He is related to Melian by through Elwing, to Dior and then Luthien. But after many generations that blood line would be quite weak I would imagine it had little influence upon his inherent power.
Looking at a precise breakdown of his lineage is as follows:
Three eighths Edain, through two lines: his grandfather Tuor of the House of Hador, and his great-grandfather Beren of the House of Bëor.
He was also descended from the third House of the Edain, the Haladin, through Tuor's grandmother Hareth.
Five sixteenths Sindar, again through two lines: his grandmother Nimloth and his great-great-grandfather Thingol.
Five thirty-seconds Vanyar, through his great-grandmother Elenwë, and also through his great-great-great-grandmother, Indis the second wife of Finwë.
Three thirty-seconds Noldor, through his great-grandfather, Turgon (who himself had only three-quarters Noldorin blood).
One sixteenth Maiar, through his great-great-grandmother Melian.
I am looking into the rings powers and indeed what happened at the ford in more detail as we speak.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
well we have talked about this before if I remember it right. But I just have to say this. Even though the elven rings weren't created as weapons, I'm sure they carry certain powers. These powers can be used on the battlefield, no doubt. When Gandalf fights the balrog he says he's the keeper of "the flame of anor". Now what the flame of anor really is, is debated. However, my opinion is that the ring Naria - the ring of fire is the explanation. Because he's guarding the ring right. So I'm sure Elrond will get some advantage of having the ring, can't say what though. But i still think Aragorn is a better fighter and he will Defeat Elrond in battle.
Elrond's ring possibly along with inherent power gave him influence over the realm that he lives. I wouldn't say it gave him power on the battlefield that was not their purpose. To augment ones own natural magic maybe.
Anor literally translates to Sun in Sindarin. The Flame of Anor is not in any way shape or form related to the said Flame of Anor, Or The Flame Imperishable used by Eru to give life. In his letters Tokien talks extensively about the Three Rings and all their given names Narya the Great, The Third Ring, Narya the Red and The Kindler but never has he ever connected it with the Flame of Anor.
The Sun that is seen in middle earth is the last light of one of the Two scared trees of Valinor that of Laurelin, before they were destroyed by Morgoth.
What Gandalf saying is by "wielder of the Flame of Anor" is that he is a servant of the West and the Lord that live there an emissary of the Valar and that whom they serve Eru. He is not however saying, look at me I have a magic ring. He is above that, his power is above that. Naryas power lay in kindling the hearts and spirits of those around for valour and great deeds. There is also evidence they helped ease the passage of time on Gandalf allowing him to go about his task with more vigour but this is not the Flame of Anor.
Initially according to the HOME books it read as 'I am the master of White Flame. The Red Fire cannot come this way' reading it this way doesn't refer to the ring as a THING its a stance white for good, red and later black for evil. In this light even after its evolution into the changed poetic "Flame of Anor" it is Gandalf announcing whom he serves and the power he gains from that, he is announcing that he serves the good side the Lord of the West.
(The original texts for this passage are found in The History of Middle-earth volume 7, X The Mines of Moria (2): The Bridge)
In the actual text said in The Lord of the Rings Gandalf says
"I am a servant of the Secret Fire*, wielder of the flame of Anor*2. You cannot pass. The dark fire*3 will not avail you, flame of Udun*4. Go back to the Shadow*5! You cannot pass."
* The Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable the force used by Eru to give life and free will. As a servant of this he shows he is a servant of Eru
*2 Flame of Anor as I stated is seen to represent the power he wields as a representative of the Lord of the West and his status as a Maiar. It is not the power of Narya the ring that allows him to cause the bridge to break it is his own. Inherent power.
*3 Again in contrast to the Flame of Anor and good we are shown Dark Fire, a reference to the enemy and evil to be drawn into comparison.
*4 Udun was Morgoths oldest and greatest fortress in the north of the world, Morgoth was the Balrogs only true master.
*5 Shadow, again a reference to dark and evil in contrast.~
Apart from the annotations just made and the reference to past texts and evolutions into what it became the sheer power Gandalf displays cannot be attributed to the Ring. Whilst you are entitled to your opinion of course, I think I have made mine now. I will give it that Elronds ring allowed him more possiblity and influence to create the flood at the ford, but I do not think it would have aided in him a sword battle.
Much like the use of the Eagles the Rings bore by Gandalf and Elrond are there to get our heros out of otherwise difficult circumstances or to provide a solution not to be overused to the point of being crutches for our characters to lean upon. It is also worth noting that Gandalf never revealed that he bore Narya, not even to those who travelled with him until his departure at the grey havens. Indeed it seems that until then only Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan and Saurman knew for sure that Gandalf carried the Kindler. I doubt Gandalf would have so openly announced what he carried when we know that Sauron had many spies and was an expert in torture and getting information even out of Gollum about the One Ring's whereabouts.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Yeah I have far too much time on my hands and Gandalf, Istari, Rings etc are the subjects I spend a lot of my time if I am reading, reading about (Although recently it has been the Men of the North the line of the Kings and what little I can find about Dwarven folk)
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Haha, yeah you certainly have given your opinion. And i do share it in some ways. Still i do think Narya gives Gandalf "extra powers". Not necessarily pure physical powers though. And i never said that. I never said that it was because of narya Gandalf could destroy the bridge. If narya is the flame of anor or not is hard to say, but you seem pretty sure of what you think. I think it can be kinda both i a way. But that's not my point here and we can have a discussion about the flame of anor i an other thread, because I'm talking about if the rings carry powers or not. And if they do, which I'm sure they do, even if not offensive. They can still be useful on the battlefield.
Ok I'm going to try to prove this to you.
When Círdan gives the ring to Gandalf * he says ( translating from Swedish, Unfinished tales, Istari ) "because heavy burdens and dangers awaits you, take this ring as help and support... ... it seems to me that it should rest in more noble hands then mine, hands that can use it to light the fire of courage in all hearts."
there is a similair passage on the last page in silmarilion, "about the the rings of power and the third age" not quenta silmarillion though.
on the next page says this thing about gandalf (also a translation) : " his spirit was warm and willing, (a thing that was further extended because of the ring narya)"
So basically what I'm trying to say is that Naria gives Gandalf the power to keep hope and wanting to defeat evil, and also helps him defeat evil. he is the only of the istari who doesn't fall in to darkness. And the ring naria helps him in battle, not by bursting out fire i the face of the enemy, but by making him and the soldiers around him to keep a good moral and courage.
(* I will use the ring Naria and Gandalf as examples because gandalf is a bigger role then elrond and there are more facts about him and his ring, and naria and vilya should follow the same "laws"...)
Vilya was more powerful than Narya and its power seemed less of the kindling kinds more of the control over Elrond realm keeping it free from the decay of time and under his sway.
Narya actually held the powers to kindle hope in others and to make Gandalf less weary I don't think it gave him the urge to keep fighting evil. That was his own spirit, when one of the Istari stay true to their quest they constantly long for the West they wish to go back there for it is their home. Yet they can only return when their task is done. And only Saurman fell so utterly into darkness.
Radagast became enamoured by the nature of Middle-earth and can be seen as failing in his task of uniting the peoples of Middle-Earth under one banner. The fate of the two Blue Wizards is unknown and much speculation can be drawn upon if they succeeded in their task or not.
The passage you refer to in the English version says
"great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage"
Much like Gandalf's nature, apart from easing the weariness of time and world and worry upon him the ring would do little for him. However like Gandalf it did much for those around them willing them for courage and valour, as Gandalf was not meant to directly interfere into matters of mortal hands he was not meant to fight for them. Rather unite them under one banner and inspire them to fight on their own.
The reason I shall say to you that Gandalf is not referring to the Ring as the "Flame of Anor" because in the same passage quoted it is said "And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret" Ever Secret, he did not reveal that he held it in any way no matter what guise he would mention it. Or by what name.
I shall give you that the warmth of his spirt is indeed said to be enhanced by the Ring Narya, but this can be read as the warmth percieved by others thusly the desire to help him or unite with him. Thusly is can be related into the powers stated before of inspiring courage and valour and making himself and those around him less wearisome.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
If only we had a thread like that on Elvish or the sons of Feanor I could argue just as much XD
I have to agree with thefallen though, as far as I can follow you two^^
I hate to split posts (because you might lose the context) but this answer is pretty long so I'll take it in chapters.
Yeah that's what I said. I it is impossible to say "it's like this and that's wrong" on this matter. However we agreed that Naria gave Gandalf, and others that were around him, courage and good moral in combat. This can be the difference between life and death, how is that not useful in combat? What I have said so far is that the rings of power can give powers to the one who carries it, NOT physical but still useful in a battlefield. Now you said Vilia is more like quote:
"less of the kindling kinds more of the control over Elrond realm keeping it free from the decay of time and under his sway."
I can't prove you wrong here, but if would be nice if you provided a quote here; or some kind of source. Why should it be any different to the other rings?
I do think naria is a part of why gandalf felt the urge to fight evil, to put it your way. At least the quote I gave you said so. I will write it down again, with a more careful translation. And a longer part of it.:
"His spirit was warm and eager (a trait that was further extended by narya), because he was Saurons Enemy and he fought the fire/flame that destroys and devastates with the fire/flame that warms and brings aid in hopelessness and distress"
This says quite clearly that Narya is a part of why Gandalf never stops fighting. I also think there is a connection between the ring Narya being the ring of fire and why Tolkien chooses to write "the fire/flame that destroys and devastates with the fire/flame that warms and brings aid in hopelessness and distress".
And you already know what happened to the Istari. I should have put my sentence in an other way I admit. But still gandalf was to only one who remained true to his task. That's what i meant.
Again, I can't prove you wrong, but I think my quote says quite well that the ring made him even more himself, if you know what I mean.
Let's make a thread! I will be glad to discuss this.
Vilya was more powerful than Narya, as the ring Elrond bore was the mightiest of all of the the three. Whilst its powers are not specifically stated we know that like Galadriel Elrond used his ring to slow the passage of time and keep Rivendell untouched by the shadow and the passing of years. When the one ring is destroyed the powers of the three shall fade and with it Rivendell and Lorien shall grow old and the passage of time shall show upon them.
Narya is unique I think because its qualities did not seem to effect the area, it may be because of how Gandalf used it to effect people that differs from Elronds and Galadriels use of their rings. I think the rings seemed to augment ones of inherent power or character are you demonstrated Gandalf's aura was enhanced by his possesion of the Red Ring. Elrond and Galadriel were powerful Magician's among Elves and its quite possible that as such the rings acted upon them differently instead enabling them to control their environment. It could also in theory be a power of the three to protect and preserve that which one cares about most, Gandalf cared most about the peoples of Middle-earth and their plight, Elrond and Galadriel whilst caring for others their main domain was with the protection of their specific kingdoms I shall attempt to find a quote this is just so you can see my line of thinking.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Yeah well we can only guess here because Tolkien never wrote so much about the other two. But no mater what power they possessed, it is still useful in a fight I deem. May I ask you how you know that Vilya is more powerful. I do not question it at all, but I can't seem to find it anywhere. Except the fact that Narya is the third ring, and Vilya possibly nr one.
If the rings acted differently depending on the bearer? Impossible to say for sure. But it certainly is an interesting thought. I might be hard to back it up but I'll try. The only ring that was ever carried by several people is, once again, Narya. First Gil-Galad* then Círdan and later Gandalf who had it until the one ring was destroyed, and the power was diminished. *(different books tell us different facts about this, some say he just brought it to Círdan, other sources tell us he had it for a brief time or maybe even until his death, I don't remember the whole thing now . Well anyway he had it for a while)
Now there is nothing that says that either Gil-Galad or Círdan had the same aura as Gandalf because of the ring. On the other hand, there is nothing that says it didn't. I guess absence isn't proof of absence.
"Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forehead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three"
Gil-Galad apparently delivered the Third ring, Narya to Cirdan and kept Vilya himself up until his death in which is passed to Elrond. Of course during this time whilst they held the rings of power they could not wear them (During the time of the Last Alliance Sauron still held the one ring and even the Three were not immune to its power)
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 30th, 2006 12:07 AM
. Well anyway he had it for a while) 
