You're saying Cell's power was proven wrong, then you're using the Buu argument, it's like proving orange is an apple.
In his healthy state, Surfer is durable but can be hurt by a blast of like Ironman's repulsor beam, he's not as durable as whatever planet busting level of ATTACK he receives means nothing to him or tickles him, it affects him somehow just like what the comics portrayed it, Surfer can feel pain. As for matter manipulation, Surfer didn't portray in the comics that he can matter manipulate Super Skrull, Ironman, Doctor Doom, Mephisto, Runner, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Carnage, Ego the living Planet, Annihilus, The Champion, Karnak or a creature the same power as Goku. In terms of blasting power, I will not agree that Surfer has more destructive blasting power than Goku. And don't use an example "when he pisses off, hed just take goku to the astral plane", because it never happened in a comics portrayal where he pisses off with a character having a pure heart like Goku. Also, Goku can still fight in his astral form. Goku is a pure heart but he loves to fight. Come back when you can show me in the scan that Surfer can matter manipulate a solar system buster.
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Last edited by nij-ayias on Dec 18th, 2008 at 09:00 AM
Why would red suns not exist in the DBZ world? All stars become either dwarfs or giants at the end of their life span- usually red. No where in Dragonball does it say "ALL STARS ARE YELLOW. ALWAYS." So what evidence do you have that it's any different from what would be expected based on physics?
Secondly, it's not the sun that powers the spirit bomb. It's living creatures. And it's not yellow, it's blue-white- and it's Ki not a nuclear fusion reaction. So it shouldn't power him up either. The Spirit Bomb was an example, any attack powerful enough to destroy the sun will suffice.
The ship based on the designs of Vegeta's original ship, modified by Dr. Briefs. Travels at 6 times the speed of light and has a 300 gravity chamber in-built. Vegeta used it for training. Whether it's functional at EoZ i'm not sure, but considering how quickly Dr Briefs built it, and repaired it each time Vegeta blew it up, it should be usable.
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I think it's a little more complicated than "didn't have the power to block it".
Firstly, both were weakened from battle. Secondly, they weren't actually in between the blast and the planet- and they wouldn't want to use a blast of their own to detonate the blast because that kinda defeats the purpose. So, in their weakened state, they were unable to get underneath the blast quickly enough in order to safely deflect it from the planet. Goku couldn't necessarily use IT because it takes him time to "lock on" to his destination/ki target.
Finally, there's reasonable evidence that a more powerful blast doesn't necessarily have a larger radius- consider Vegeta's self destruction. It's more powerful than Gohan vs Cell Kamehameha or Frieza's death ball, but it doesn't destroy the planet- it must be directional. So whereas Frieza's death ball destroyed the planet Vegeta entirely, Vegeta's attack was confined to a small hemi-sphere around himself and Buu.
Therefore, Buu's attack could well have been focused on the Earth- which would make sense seeing as the more focused it was, the harder it would be for Vegeta and Goku to stop, without costing Buu a lot of wasted energy.
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lulz. surfer has survived planet busting attacks with extreme ease. Iron mans repulsor blast do NOT even come close to hurting regular current surfer. surfer has survived the onslaught fromfrom Tenebrous and Aegis( Galactus level beings) as well as an elder god with infinite power. he has also fought in a blackhole while weakend with no effect.
Above survives planet destroying blast easily against korvac. No one said that surfer doesnt feel pain, the fact is however that goku doesnt have what it takes to come close to knocking him out. And really u definitely have not read any surfer comics. Surfer has never used his matter manip on superskrull? Nonsense he does so here by encasing and crushing his head in an invisible sphere.
He has never used it on hulk? More nonsense. Here he manipulates the hulks energy transferring it to himself and uses it to amp his own strength while reverting hulk to banner
Here he changes the structure of legacy molecules ( as well as the nega bands which manipulate matter and energy themselves) and puts him inside his board.
Never against carnage? U obviously dont know what ur talking about. Here he encases converts energy to matter and encases carnage in a hard shell of ethel energy
Oh and well surfer himself may have not used his matter/energy manip powers on thing but thats because he holds back and is friends with the FF. Heres what doctor doom using surfers powers does to thing.
So um yeah, surfer does use his matter/energy manipulation abilities a whole lot ( i only showed a very small bit of what surfer has actually done). Also some of the guys u mentioned like mephisto and ego the living planet are far above goku or even surfer. They have matter/energy manipulation far above surfer and so he simply cant use such powers on them. Many of the guys i showed above have matter/energy manipulation resistance but Ss was still able to use it on them. Goku has no such resistance to it at all. Also as for blasting power. Here surfer creating a black hole as an after effect of a very casual nonchalant energy discharge. As u know, our solarsytems sun is not near massive enough to accomplish the same. Definitely superior to Goku
And all that pure heart talk is just garbage. For one current surfer no longer cares about anything other than finding planets for galactus and is very ruthless. He showed this by totally wiping the floor with nova who also had a "pure heart". And when has goku ever fought on the astral plane? Good job making things up.
anyways, it shud now be obvious that surfer can probably beat goku,vegeta,gohan,gotenks and the rest of the Z fighters at the same time.
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Last edited by Naija boy on Dec 18th, 2008 at 11:34 AM
We've only seen yellow suns so far so there is no proof that a red sun exists and even if it did how would Vegeta know that would weaken him? A red sun as his weakness is not common knowledge and besides the fact, Vegeta is too prideful to just beat someone who is basically a human so the sun won't get destroyed and he won't fight him under a red sun.
Second of all the sun gives all of those living creatures the energy and a spirit bomb is not powerful enough to destroy a sun. So many people have survived a spirit bomb so there is no proof that he could destroy it. Also a spirit bomb is not a super fast move, so Superman could just block it or stand in its way.
You can't say that it is functional with no proof of it actually functioning. Also I love how you have Vegeta, the most prideful character of the Z series running away from a worthy opponent so he could fight him under unfair conditions. Mind you this is the same guy that turned on the Z fighters just so he could defeat Cell in his strongest form.
1. You gotta keep me informed when you do name changes.
2. What do you mean "probably"? Surfer could take them all on seeing as they only have 2 ways to attack which is energy which is something that Surfer has no problems with manipulating and physical which he has proven to currently have great durability and the power to increase his own defense. What are they going to do to him, stall while Goku makes a super spirit bomb?
Vegeta blew up the planet buster. Size also has nothing to do with blasting something or catching a weak blast. They were freaking out about its power. And Kid Buu toyed with Gokou.
When people usually freakout over planet busters they also resort to countering. See Vegeta vs Gokou first fight and Cell's huge downwards Kamehameha Gohan counters effortlessly. He says he can't deflect that because its to powerful. After they felt it's power they had time to say a few things, get Satan and Dende, and then Gokou to worry about his family and friends. If it was just a causal blast then Gokou should have easily been able to just block it with a kamehameha that doesn't take long to form anyway. Yet they flee.
Vegeta didn't do anything to Kid Buu. He flees without fighting on Earth, as Gokou charges he blasts Buu to bits, and then after that gets beaten effortlessly. Then he just sits around while Fat Buu fights Kid Buu the rest of the time time.
Goten never even fought Broli after the two seconds he does at the start, and then leaves to let Trunks fight if I recall correctly. Gohan was the only hurt one but Gohan was also hurt when he overpowered Cell. And Gokou coming down all spirit like to lend power to the Kamehameha doesn't mean he didn't add anything to it. And he was full powered. Also Trunks blasted one tiny blast that detonated one of Broli's blast. A few more blasts never went through either that had nothing to do with Trunks and the only explanation for that is because of Goten's wish. Just like Gokou appearing. It doesn't matter that the blasts weren't able to power up the bigger one anyway. The Kamehameha hit the sun. It doesn't loose it's power suddenly just because it's far away.
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1.lol
2. yeah thats true, i shud hve said "definitely" cuz they really have no defense against him while there method of attack is very limited and ineffective.
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Toyed with Goku? That makes me question if you actually saw the fight, Goku was able to fight him evenly, while being exhausted from earlier fights and while being alive. Being alive drained his energy while in ssj3, Goku even said himself that if he was at full power he would kill Kid Buu.
Its funny the way people have tried to spin this. Size has plenty to do with it, especially when the hugeness of something is pointed out. They did not freak out about its power at all, infact you can look at the small blast just before it for proof of that.
Buu throws the small planet buster, what does Goku do? He freaks out about it, then its deflected by Vegeta. Goku even continues freaking after is been deflected. http://s5.tinypic.com/2h4yepw.jpg
Once again not once do any of them make any remark about the power of Buu's blast, which would be the first thing they would do if they were impressed by its power. Goku specifically mentions its too big to deflect. http://s5.tinypic.com/av0oc7.jpg
The whole point of Kid Buu was not about power, he wasn't even top 5 power wise in that arc. The point of Kid Buu was his lack of reason, he acted off pure instinct which made him dangerous. Power wise he was not above ssj3 Goku. Which further proves if it was about power then ssj3 Goku could have done whatever you think he should have. So its either PIS that they didn't try to deflect the blast or it was like Goku said, too big to deflect safely.
and after looking at it again, Vegeta had jumped in front of the blast so he planned to do something before Goku told him his plan. http://s5.tinypic.com/2cegn43.jpg
Further, I can't recall any of the giant ball type attacks being successfully deflected, only beamstruggles. but like I said not much time at all is passing from between the time Buu throws it and they leave, the small panels are the equivalent of slow motion and Goku doesn't even finish Instant Transmission which only takes seconds.
As for Vegeta, he fought Kid Buu again after that, while in his base form. and the point is he wasn't outclassed to the point where he couldn't take the blows and end up getting one hit ko'ed like he had been in previous arcs.
Goten was just ko'ed two seconds before. and Gohan didn't overpower Cell, Vegeta distracted him and Gohan basically cheap shotted him. Trunks blast stopped more than just one from going through but after that when the kameha is going more just detonate for no reason and the there is no explanation for those. Goten's wish was just for Goku to be there and he was there in spirit form, he didn't actually do it physically, the kameha doesn't even jump in size like it would. We never see the kameha hit the sun, we see it smash Broly into it and then something seems to come out the other end. and something taking a kameha two feet from the origin is going to take a lot more damage than something that takes a kameha after its traveled across the solar system.
They have shown resistance to matter manip, their gods can matter manip but are useless around them. They can use barriers and can amp themselves physically and durability wise as well. Vegetto let himself be converted into candy and still retained his consciousness, speech and power. If you are talking about all of them then no Surfer isn't beating them all simultaneously, that brings in reality manipulators, people who bust through dimensions from other universes, at least one multiply galaxy buster, etc
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Well have they ever resisted matter manip from a surfer level manipulator? I mean surfer has evolved an entire planet billions of years into the future, deactivated all earths machinery and manipulated the photons in order to remove light from the planet. He was able to subatomically protect the drive techs of millions of ships from galactuses electromagnetic distortion just by blinking. As i showed above he was able to alter the structure of legacy and the nega bands and put him in his board even though the nega bands themselves are manipulate matter at a very high level. Also, when he performed this feat, he was in an entirely different location from the ships. I dont really understand what u mean by their gods are useless around them.
Also, surfer has resisted high level reality manip before. Breaking dimensional barriers and moving thru dimensions is nothing special as surfer and even thor do it easily. Who is the multiple galaxy buster ur talking about? If its brolly, im not sure of his so called galaxy busting feat but even then wasnt he killed by being sent thru the sun?
If so then surfers blasts would wreck him. The durability of DBZ guys doesnt seem to be that high and if surfer sees he is fighting all of them, he can easily create a blackhole should be able to kill ( and the all of them in one swoop.
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I know all about what Surfer can do, I posted that because it was said they have no resistance at all. As for anything as high as Surfer's high end feats, we don't have that many feats to go on to judge, its comparing a manga based on tiers to comics that have been around for decades that are based around feats. So no we don't know, you would think the gods of their universe created everything but we don't see it happen to know for sure.
By useless I mean they have to go to the zfighters for help because Buu killed most of them years before. As far as I know Thor, opens portal type things with his hammer, I've never seen him force open a door to another dimension out of nothing. Not just moving through dimensions though but while being in another universe, forcing open a tear back to their own dimension. As for Broly, most of the time people don't like it because it doesn't mesh with their estimations of their power but the god of that galaxy said it himself and we see the galaxy disappear. But no the sun didn't kill him, the kameha smashing him against the sun made his heart explode, basically a plot device from an injury he had as a baby. In the anime Buu destoyed galaxies as well and I want to say Bojack and Janemba were capable of it as well but its been years since I watched those movies. Also they can amp their durability.
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Last edited by TheBadguy on Dec 18th, 2008 at 10:33 PM
If he shot one blast or multiple we don't see, but we do see the galaxy go up simultaneously. Time is specified more than you realize then. We actually see King Kai reacting while the galaxy is blown up, and we see he is worried his galaxy is going to be blown next, we see King Kai go on about needing Goku immediately saying to Goku he could come destroy the North Galaxy next. They aren't waiting around for years for Broly to go planet to planet.
There's absolutely no reason to assume that it differs from the norm, which is that the majority of stars become red towards the end of their life span.
Vegeta is proud, sure, but he's also a win-at-all-costs kinda guy. He had no problem sneaking around Namek trying to get the Dragonballs before Frieza when he knew he couldn't win head on. I can see why he wouldn't use kryptonite- he'd consider that dishonourable- but that doesn't mean he'd fight on ground that benefits Superman either.
The sun is the source of your energy too, but I doubt anyone's trying to power solar panels by pointing them at you. Spirit Bomb is not static power, it depends on how much energy Goku is given. The Spirit Bomb probably wouldn't destroy the sun, however, as it doesn't seem to affect landscape in the same way it affects opponents (it's a lot more powerful than a kamehameha, but doesn't destroy the Kai planet when Goku uses it, whereas the Kamehameha from the Cell Saga would have destroyed the planet if aimed directly at it). So to destroy the sun- I think Final Flash would probably be the best move, it's more focused and controlled than the kamehameha, when Vegeta first uses it you see it travel off into space out of sight so it should definitely have the range.
Last time you see the ship it's functional (Vegeta trains in it before turning Super Saiyan, so it was in working order during the Cell Saga). And it took Dr Briefs only as long as Goku was hospitalized after his first fight with Vegeta to build it in the first place. So it's either still extant- we have no evidence to the contrary, after all- or can be built in less than a week.
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Nope the rule says human, not lifeform or alien. Aliens don't exist in the DNU so they weren't taken into consideration when the DN was made. You can't say that it would work seeing as they don't exist. I could say that anyone with a strong enough will power could defy death and survive. We haven't seen it used on someone with tremendous and unwavering will power so we don't know if it would work?
See what I did there?
You have no proof that red suns exist in the DBZU unless you are trying to apply real world physics to an anime.
Vegeta's pride would bar him from fighting him under a red sun seeing as there would be absolutely no challenge in beating him. If he was willing to help Cell acheive his perfect form just so he could fight him and kill him at his strongest then he will fight Superman at his best.
Just because aliens don't exist in the DNU, doesn't mean the DN will categorically not work on certain aliens. The difference between Superman- or a Saiyan for that matter- and an animal is that a) the former is fully sentient, and therefore has a NAME. Animals for the most part do not have names. Historically, Christianity has held that animals do not have souls- without souls, sentience or a name, the Death Note clearly will not work. However, aliens that resemble humans closely may well work. They have names, for one thing, which is always presented as the primary modus operandi of the Death Note. Let me put it this way- IF the writers of Death Note introduced aliens/did a crossover, they could easily have the Death Note used on humanoid aliens with reasonable explanation. If they wanted to have the Death Note used on animals though, it would require them to essentially overwrite current DN canon (as has happened to Superman several times over his literary existence.)
Why would real world physics not apply to this aspect of the Dragonball universe? The basic rule of literary interpretations is that unless there is evidence otherwise, real world rules apply as expected. The planet is called Earth, the universe is similar to RL except where stated or implied to be different. There is absolutely no implication or discussion of general astronomy in dragonball that would lead you to conclude that red stars do not exist.
No, he won't necessarily fight Superman at his best, it depends on the circumstances. If this were a "friendly" match, then quite possibly yes. If this were a serious battle though, then Vegeta will fight under conditions that give him the best chance of winning, so long as he does not consider it totally dishonourable. Otherwise he would never have submitted to fusion, against either Janemba or Buu. So in a serious match, he'll do what he needs to to win.
For a start, final flash is shown to have an incredibly long range and stability when it's first used- it continues on into space out of sight. (I'd lol so hard if it hit some unsuspecting alien planet light years away XD). So unlike the Kamehameha wave, it's very controlled. After that it just comes down to a matter of power- Cell couldn't block it, meaning the attack was higher than his own power level. By EoZ, Vegeta should be 30 times more powerful than he was when he fought Kid Buu, presuming a linear increase in strength with training (his strength more than triples in a year of severe training). Krillen and Trunks knew that the Final Flash was powerful enough to destroy the planet if it hit the surface.
So the only question is whether, at 51x his full strength (as opposed to the near drained state he was in when he launched his Final Flash) when fighting Imperfect Cell (17 years times X, where X >= 3), plus the increase in strength due to a) dying and being resurrected, and b) achieving SSJ2 in this time he's capable of destroying the Sun. I think he would be.
__________________ "Tell me, is it slavery when you get what you want?"
Christianity, or any religion for that matter, has absolutely no place in this debate. You'll have to use something else to support your theory that the Death Note won't work on animals. Religion is worthless in this context.
That's great. You still need to realize this in no way proves at all that Vegeta can destroy the sun. In fact, there's far, far more evidence to the contrary.
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Dec 18th, 2008 08:47 AM
