Christianity was merely an analogy, not proof. The point is that there are major differences between animals (on which the Death Note doesn't work) and humanoid aliens (the point of difference).
I couldn't agree more that religion itself is worthless in this context.
It doesn't prove it. The only possible undeniable proof that Vegeta or anyone else could destroy the sun would be for them to do it. But it does prove that Vegeta's Final Flash can travel astronomical (in the literal sense of the word) distances without significant deterioration, after having already hit Cell. So he can hit the sun. It also proves that he should be more than 50 times his strength as of his fight with Imperfect Cell, in SSJ1, by the EoZ. Added on to that are the transformation to SSJ2, and his death and revival. So while it doesn't prove that he can destroy the sun (I'd really like to see this evidence to the contrary by the way), it proves that he can hit the sun with an attack, and is far more powerful than planet-busting level by this point.
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Good thing this would be more of a friendly battle seeing as Superman isn't coming to kill them nor bloodlusted. You seriously think that Vegeta fighting him under a red sun isn't dishonorable? He will only be beating someone with normal human stats.
You still have yet to prove how he could destroy a sun nor how a DN would kill an alien. It says human not humans and humanoid aliens. There in no proof that it would work on an alien.
As you pointed out earlier, there are no aliens, humanoid or otherwise, in the Death Note universe. So, there is no information, for or against, on whether humanoid aliens can be killed by a Death Note. As for how the Death Note works- the details are not explained, but the key factor in killing someone is their name. Animals don't have names. Humanoid aliens, including both Superman and Vegeta, do, though Vegeta may or may not be protected by the fact that he has only a single, hereditary, name. In the case of aliens that are genetically so similar to humans as to look almost exactly the same (far more than any other primate), and are mentally and emotionally also very similar, I see no reason why it wouldn't work. That's not to say that it definitely would, but considering that the most important factor in the use of the Death Note has always been the name, it suggests that it will work on named individuals even if they aren't humans.
If it's a friendly battle, then they should fight on neutral ground (for example, somewhere which doesn't have a full moon nor a particularly intense level of sunlight)
As I said earlier, I have a feeling that the only proof you would accept that Vegeta can destroy the sun would be a scan of him doing it, and as you know no such thing exists. I've proved he can hit the sun with a coherent attack (Final Flash), and also that his strength should be far greater by the EoZ (10 year gap) than when he fought Buu. In terms of power, he was already stronger than Fat Buu (blasted a hole right through him easily enough), but not Kid Buu. By EoZ then, he should be stronger than Kid Buu if he's been doing what he's done for every other gap in Dragonball since his introduction- training as hard as he can. However, if you don't view this as proof that he's able to destroy the sun by this point (seeing as how Kid Buu certainly could, according to Kaioushin), then the only proof that would be undeniable would be a scan of him doing it, am I right?
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There are other ways to prove he could destroy the sun, but we can't prove it because...well he can't do it. Due to the radical inconsistency of DBZ, being 50 times stronger does not mean your attacks increase in damage by that amount except against your actual foe. I don't feel like listing every single example of the evidence saying Vegeta can't destroy the sun, so I'll just bring up the common theme. Vegeta, and every dbz hero for that matter, has been portrayed consistently at a level far, far below even planet busting. Case in point, Vegeta self destructs during the series and merely leaves a small crater in the ground. You can find things like this all throughout the series as I am sure you recall. Saying Vegeta can destroy the sun just because of one outlier of an attack combined with a multiplication theory that the series is never congruent with is a bit unreasonable.
Under normal circumstances you'd probably be right, but that logic just doesn't work in DBZland.
This is an interesting topic. It actually might work on animals. Names are not an inherent property of anything in the universe. Any name, human or otherwise, has to actually be given to a particular thing by another particular thing. Why would a name given to an animal not work when written down in the death note the same way a name given to a human would?
Last edited by StyleTime on Dec 19th, 2008 at 03:51 PM
I disagree about the portrayal of characters in DBZ. Vegeta is portrayed as planet busting from his very first appearance in the anime (destroys Arlia, and when fighting Goku for first time warns him that if he dodges the Galick Gun, he can say goodbye to his planet). The manga is more equivocal, but nonetheless by the end of the Namek saga all the major fighters are portrayed as very much capable of destroying a planet as a tactic of last resort.
Also, I assumed linearity in Vegeta's strength increase, not multiplication. If it had been multiplication it would have been 3^17 = 129 million. I thought that sounded ridiculous, though you never know with DBZ. So yeah, due to DBZ wacky logic I can't prove it, but my estimates were, I thought, the most likely scenarios.
I wouldn't call the Final Flash sequence an outlier, because it's not like Vegeta uses the Final Flash at other times to a different effect. As an attack it might be, compared to the other attacks, but I was only discussing that specific attack and not a standard Ki blast.
With regards to the crater, and any other post-Namek example of an attack that doesn't destroy the earth- the important distinction here is between "doesn't" and "can't"- Vegeta does NOT want to blow up the Earth. That would be somewhat counter-productive. Furthermore, he DOES want to ensure that he blasts Buu with as much energy as possible. So, the attack is an extremely intense one with small radius. There is a similar idea behind all the energy attacks- Goku's Kamehameha has an effective power level 3 times his own against Raditz because he concentrates all his energy into a small area, rather than spread across his body.
To use an analogy, this is like saying that because the U.S. army use precision-smart bombs, that they CAN'T turn the Middle East into a glass crater- they can, but there are obvious reasons that they don't.
The series IS reasonably congruent with the multiplication theory, imo- not exactly, but in terms of ballpark figures. Consider- Pui Pui was beaten by Vegeta in his natural state effortlessly, and he's supposed to be one of the strongest fighters in the Universe. The Supreme Kai's surprise at Goku and Vegeta's strength is evident, and not just because they're Saiyans rather than humans. Vegeta is also clearly far stronger than Dabura is- Vegeta states this watching Gohan fight, and unlike Dabura Vegeta's strength and speed are comparable or superior to Buu (two-fingered blast goes straight through Buu's defenses, though Buu just regenerates any damage.)
Onto the Death Note stuff- I think it requires a level of sentience and self-awareness in the victim that animals don't have- remember, it's not good enough to have any name, it has be their real name. So I think it should work on sentient, humanoid aliens- they have self awareness, and therefore names. It has to be the victim that recognises the name as "theirs", not the killer, iirc. So yeah, it's not so much about the name being given as the victim identifying with it.
__________________ "Tell me, is it slavery when you get what you want?"
That planet destroying blasts wasn't thousand times stronger like in DBZ.
It's not matter manipulation or he didn't turn The Hulk into statue or inanimate object. Surfer cannot manipulate KI.
Human Torch, Carnage, Legacy, Nebula, Quasimodo and Thing is nowhere in DBZ level of releasing a single energy blast that can destroy cities, moon, planet, solar system and dimensional wall.
Those individual aren't as powerful as Roshi.
Look, he cannot matter manipulate Obliterator, only his weapons. Obiterator cannot matter manipulate or destroy a solar system with a single blast.
I know all of that scan,those characters weren't as powerful as Freeza, what makes you think that he can matter manipulate Goku if you cannot show me a scan that he can matter manipulate a creature that can destroy the solar system with a single blast.
Mephisto and Ego cannot destroy the whole solar system with a single blast. Ego the living planet, come on, Ego and Mephisto cannot survive a planet destroying blast thousand times powerful or solar system blasts. As for Mephisto magical energy manipulation, it is limited in some form of pact is involved or he cannot subjugate the will of another being without his victim's deliberate permission.
Cell didn't say that he will use the sun to destroy the whole solar system. He said, he gathered enough Ki to destroy the whole solar system. He will destroy the whole solar system by using his full power kame hame ha alone.
That's just some kind of matter manipulation not blasting power and it doesn't necessarily mean that Surfer has enough energy output to release such energy that can destroy the whole solar system with a single blast. Show me a scan where Silver Surfer released a single energy blast that destroyed the whole solar system.
Nova cannot destroy the whole solar system with a single blast, he cannot release that kind of energy output.
1.) Can show me a scan that thousand times stronger than planet destroying blast could only tickle the Silver Surfer?
2.) Can show me a scan that many times stronger than solar system destroying blast could only tickle the Silver Surfer?
3.) Can show me scan where he resist a magical matter manipulation? Take note the word magical. Look, Buu's magical matter manipulation has no limit, if he wants you to turn into candy, you will become a candy no matter what kind of matter manipulation you have or how powerful your Ki or power is. No matter how strong you are, Buu's magical matter manipulation will turn you into anything, it was proven.
4.) Show me that Silver Surfer's matter manipulation is effective against a non reality warper or non matter manipulator but has superior energy blasting output than Surfer.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Dec 20th, 2008 at 05:25 AM
Hmm- aren't there instances of Buu's beam being deflected, most notably by Evil Buu? It could be that only Evil Buu is capable of that, but he threw it right back at Fat Buu before eating him.
In GT Babi Vegeta does it...but GT isn't canon, so the only canon example would be Evil Buu i guess.
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When Majin-Buu's good and bad side separated, most of the power went to Evil Buu. My point is once the magical transfiguration beam hits any part of your body, poof! silver candy, no resistance at all, you will become a candy no matter what. And as far as I know, SSurfer cannot resist or deflect or manipulate magic and spells.
__________________ Crossovers usually beat logic, so equations cannot prove who is stronger.
Last edited by nij-ayias on Dec 20th, 2008 at 06:13 AM
Agreed- I'm just wondering whether it can be deflected with a ki blast like a regular Ki attack can. Silver Surfer can't use Ki though, so it wouldn't matter if it could as far as the fight goes.
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In his fight with galactus, both of them were wrecking galaxies. And u also obviously dont know who ego the living planet is either, ego has gone toe to toe with galactus before as well. He has taken and survived such blasts and u are comparing hiim to a dbz character?lulz he is far far far far far far above ANYONE in dragonballz. the same goes for mephisto. Mephisto magical powers are not limited at all. Him being allowed to take the souls of only dead beings or those who willingly give him their souls is not a limit to his magical powers. It is a cosmic contract applying to all death gods. He can use his powers any way he feels like. He is so far above buu its not even funny. You are just make baseless statements. When was it proven that buus matter manipulation is unlimited? thats a huge No limit fallacy. People in DBZ dont even have any reasonable resistance to matter manip so buu being able to manipulate them is nothing special at all. He didnt even show any high level manipulation let alone it being unlimited.
Further what in the world does energy output have to do with resistance to matter manip? (not that dbz guys output is anythin special anyways) If u have no resistance to matter manip then regardless of how high ur energy output is u will fall prey to it. Its like telling me if u are very strong u cant be teleported. The two aspects are entirely unrelated. its just inane to think otherwise.
lmao, Nobody in DBZ has blasts thousands of times more powerful than solar sytem destroying blasts. no one in dbz has shown anything like this or even close. Also surfers blackhole feat is not matter manipulation at all, what are u even talking about? Thanos clearly says its as a result of the energy he released. where did u see matter manip even mentioned?
Surfer has complete control over his molecular structure, and has accomplished matter manip feats buu cant even dream of. U need classic dr strange level magic to hinder surfer. Buu is not even close to that level.
As i said before energy blasting has absolutely nothing to do with matter manip resistance. I dont know where u got the idea that it did. Moreover dragon ballz characters dont even have superior energy blasting output than surfer anyways. They are highly one dimensional characters who surfer can take out in a myriad of ways which include matter manip killing them on the astral plane, blasting to pieces etc. Ther blast output will is useless as they have no resistance to such tactics
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Last edited by Naija boy on Dec 20th, 2008 at 06:41 AM
Well, according to the Supreme Kai, Buu destroyed whole galaxies- not necessarily one-shot, but pretty quickly. Possibly akin to his Human Extinction Attack- a myriad of solar-system destroying shots rather than a single galaxy destroying attack. Still, that requires him to be thousands of times above solar system destroying.
Further more, how do you know that DBZ characters do or don't have a level of resistance to matter manipulation? Vegito retained all of his ki-based power as a candy after all.
Buu is the only character in DBZ to do matter manipulation- so you can't tell if a) they're all incredibly resistant to matter manipulation but Buu is incredibly powerful, or b) both are weak, or c) they are weak and Buu is strong.
You need at least 2 pieces of data to be able to extract any information about something, and there's only one as far as matter manipulation and DBZ go.
Also as far as Buu's power goes- I think in the DBZ universe it is an absolute power, much like Dabura's spit. That is to say, it can't be countered, unlike Babidi's spells, for instance. For both Buu and Dabura- every time they succesfully land a hit using magic/spit, it works. There's no suggestion of a scale here, it's very much black and white- if you're hit, you get changed. If it was power dependent, then how does Buu manage to transmute Vegito into candy? There's no question Vegito is more powerful than Buu in every way, but he still gets turned into candy.
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Did supreme kai even give a time period and context for how and when buu destroyed galaxies? On panel buu hasnt destroyed jackshit.
the only time matter manip was attempted on dbz chracters, by buu it succeeded. Vegito was transformed into candy which is very basic matter manipulation. surfer has feats that make such matter manip laughable at best. Based on feats surfer is far superior to buu in matter manip. Further, resistance to matter manip has never been focused on or even referenced as an aspect of the Z fighters powers.
Also saying buus power cant be resisted is just ridiculous. The fact that buu who was weaker than vegito was still able to successfully matter manip him lends credence to the theory that their resistance to such attacks is very low. Further it is even more ridiculous to suggest that just because buu managed to succesfully affect beings with no known resistance, he will be able to affect a being who has far far far superior feats to him matter manip wise.
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What I actually said was that Buu's power can't be resisted in the DBZ universe (by which I mean literary universe). He has a 100% success record, that's pretty compelling evidence. If you have some DBZ based evidence that suggests otherwise, I'd love to see it.
Furthermore, you didn't say anything about the apparent independence in DBZ of Ki and matter, as shown by Vegito still possessing his fighting power in candy form.
Also, comparing the "complexity" of matter manipulation is futile- it's fiction. If it were done realistically it would all be pretty much the same difficulty/complexity, as it would necessarily involve a nuclear reaction where matter was transmuted from one element into another. Further, resistance to matter manip has never been focused on or even referenced as an aspect of the Z fighters powers.
Exactly my point- you can't know what their resistance to said power is. Neither can I. There is simply not enough data to infer anything useful about it.
As for the galaxies- not a specific timeframe. It wasn't thousands of years though, because the Kais tried to stop Buu as soon as they were aware of him. Nonetheless, Buu has destroyed a lot of stuff in DBZ- why else would the supreme kai be so worried about him when they never intervened in the cases of Cell or Frieza? So this is serious destruction.
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but still reppin naija
Him having a 100% record affecting DBZ characters has no bearing on his ability to affect surfer. Also it certainly is not enough to suggest that his power was abslluete. No such thing was ever suggested regarding buu. All it does is bolster the belief that dbz characters dont have resistance to such attacks. Also, whether dbz characters still retain their KI is irrelevant when they have their electrons dispersed.
Actually no comparing the complexity of matter manipulation is very valid. Numerous things come into play. Transmuting a target into a stone is nice and all. But it is not even comparable to being able to molecularly bond a persons DNA to an ecosystem, or evolve a planet and its people by billions of years etc. Matter manipulation has a whole lot more to do than just simple transmutation. Further there are things to consider such as range and precision as well. Surfer feats far better than anything buu can even fathom.
When u then consider that the only time matter manip was attempted on them, they fell prey to it, and also that the person who used it on them is not even in the same dimension as surfer matter manip wise then it is very likely to work on them.
And all buu did was off panel with no context given. Using his on panel showings surfer wrecks him easily.
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I only skimmed these really quick.
Buu only was around a few years before he was sealed is what they said, and Buu was shown blowing galaxies in a flashback. He started with a few planets and then the whole thing. Vegetto let himself be changed, his plan was to get inside Buu's body. Also while he was inside Buu with his barrier up Buu could no longer manip him anymore. Once he took his barrier down Buu was able to seperate what was supposed to be a permanent fusion, based on the word of the highest god shown.
oh yea and Buu wasn't the only matter manipulator. The gods matter manip, Piccolo was doing it as early as dragonball, might be a few more but these are off memory. Buu was just the first we saw use it too attack someone.
Yeah, I was thinking about that barrier thing. I guess that sort of does suggest Vegito can completely resist Buu's matter manip- and even when he doesn't he retains control of his Ki.
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Dec 19th, 2008 06:39 AM
The two aspects are entirely unrelated. its just inane to think otherwise.
