you are contradicting yourself. If Phoenix was as powerful and all consumins as you say , she should trancend time and space theirfore hav existed simutainously since the beggining of time till the end (thats hoe the Living Tribune exists and you say she's more powerful than him)
so by your explination she is responcible (and yes I know and understand my spelling is horrable HAHA) for all that has ever and everything that will happen in the Marvel U .
Again the Phoenix Forces involvement in reality is highlighted as the reason for the process taking place IN THE FIRST PLACE. Its clearly marked out that without the Force manifesting within Jean Grey, "THE UNIVERSE WOULD NOT BE STUNG BY THE MOSQUITO THAT IS HUMAN EVOLUTION".
What you dont seem to understand is yes it is the advanced humans who replace and supplant the roles of the abstracts and usher in the end of the universe, HOWEVER it is the Phoenix power that fuels this process and it is the Phoenix who will initiate the start of a new reality after the replacement hence why the Stranger calls the Force the beginning and the end:
Going on to illustrate the Forces driving role in the process, (the Phoenix Force engulfed D.N.A chains morphing into Eternity) the power that fuels evolution resulting in humanitys advancement to beings who would go on to supplant the abstracts.
and why Eternity elaborates with a visualization of the Force as the central image, marking it out as the perpetuator of the creation cycle, the power behind the Big Bang, (with the Force having already been established in the title as the power behind the advancement process, the process wherein a races evolution is jumpstarted to the point where they can replace the abstracts.)
Just to reiterate, yes it is the advanced humanity that the abstracts are replaced by, however as actually stated on panel its the Phoenix power that brings this about, that makes this possible.
The force getting involved in reality to serve the cause of evolution is a notion thats portrayed other titles.
Its manifestation as Dark Phoenix serves the purpose of evolution
As has the Phoenixes role as the perpetuator of the creation cycle. The power behind the Big Bang, and the fire that ultimate causes the end of reality.
X-men Forever just tied the two notions together. It made evolution the way through which the Force brought about the end.
Whilst the abstracts are reflections of the universes and their roles can be supplanted (as Thanos showed in the IG Saga and X-men Forever talked about) the Force is a constant bringing Big Bang after the Big Bang and driving evolution to initiate the replacement process.
Points which were strongly supported on panel but admittedly not continuity hence the fact that they are not and have not been brought up in debate for about a year. In light of that bringing them up now and trying to make them out to be representative of my current stance is a futile exercise.
Not in the slightest. Any issues you have queries on, BRING IT!!
The Phoenix Force among other things is the ambient life energy of any given reality. However the universes is a closed system. What that means is that under the natural scheme of things, the Big Bang is the sum of all that was, is and ever will be in any given Marvel reality. As Galactus said when talking on the matter, life feeds on life, nothing new is created, there is only transition. By taking on a consciousness within this closed system the Phoenix Force became a life unto itself and therefore started to use up the ambient life energy of reality, depriving life for future generations.
What a poor argument. You could say that for anyone. Despite the limits hes shown in the past, despite his many showings over the last 30 years you cant say Wolverine cant lift a tank like Hulk can. When has he ever been given the oppurtunity?!!!
Eternity is a universe. He is derivative of the Big Bang that in turn derives from the Phoenix. A Phoenix avatar has been shown containing multiversal power, an avatar has shown how casually she can destroy the universe by amputating its future, cutting away at the very substance of time itself. If Jean didnt grow a new future for Eternity it wouldve been game over. A Phoenix avatar manipulated all that is 616 within the palm of her hand. That includes everything all the stars all the galaxies, all of the ambient energy contained within. She broke it down to its component parts and materialized it within the White Hot Room intact. To do that she conclusively wielded more power than that universes contained. The IG gives you mastery of the forces of a universe? BIG WOW!!
And how many times has Eternity been given trouble by inconsequential beings? How many times has Galactus? LT had his power turned against him by Reed Richards machinery and got blown up. Please be objective and acknowledge that. Half of those instances happened to Rachel, the Phoenix who by canon can only access the Force in limited amounts therefore referencing those instances and trying to present them as representative of Jeans or the Forces prowess and capability is a no go
The Magneto instance was foreseen and it occurred as a part of cosmic destiny. If Jean wasnt meant to die she wouldnt have. If she ignored duty and wanted to stick around then she wouldnt have died. Its within her power to do so and she has withstood far greater attacks when she wanted to. She said earlier in the series that she was going to die and that her death has purpose. In the same issue she said she doesnt know how much longer she'll be allowed to stick around. The Magneto incident similarly gets flushed
Thats like Nate Grey telekinetically dismantling a house down to its component atoms and then materializing it elsewhere intact and then trying to argue that as Nate hasnt built or destroyed a house on panel, he couldnt do so
That is incredibly poor logic. Anyone with common sense can see that.
Phoenix has been shown on panel in Excalibur manifesting as the Big Bang of 616. On top of that it has been stated by captions and by all manner of fundamental forces in a multitude of titles over the decades to be the perpetuator of the creation cycle, that which initiates and brings to end reality. On top of that you have its avatars who have been shown manipulating matter on a universal scale at an atomic level. Jean materialized the universe in the white hot room for christs sake. She had control of its component parts and yet you would actually try and argue that with sufficient matter at hand Jean couldnt make a universe?
Once again, the evidence is against you.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Oct 26th, 2006 at 06:14 PM
Handled before. Thats your only retort because you have nothing to counter my points. On panel Phoenix has been stated to be the power behind the Big Bang. On panel Phoenix has been shown to manifest as the Big Bang. Thats enough for the creation point.
On panel an avatar has been shown to be able to contain a power that can decimate a multiverse. On panel a Phoenix has casually amputated the universes future fatally wounding it. Without her healing attempt as stated it would have died. On panel Phoenix has been shown to be able to manipulate the matter of a reality down to its component parts. In light of all of that would you really try and argue that as Phoenix hasnt been shown on panel destroying the universe then that means she cant?
Storm has been shown lifitng houses with a hurricane, but as she hasnt lifted a car on panel, she cant.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Oct 26th, 2006 at 06:34 PM
Dont be fooled. Read my last reply. The question was answered. Creation issue was dealt with on panel, Phoenix was shown manifesting as th eBig Bang in Excalibur. The Big Bang which made 616. This is in line with comments from Eternity, Death, the Watcher and Galactus pertaining to Phoenix being the spark that made 616.
Phoenix has been shown on panel manipulating the matter of the universe, she controlled all of its atoms in the palm of her hand. In light of that noone can be in any doubt that she could destroy the universe.
She contained the power that can destroy the multiverse on panel.
She casually amputated the future fatally wounding the universe on panel. If she never decided to heal it, it would have died.
The questions pertaining to destroying and healing have been dealt with.
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Oct 26th, 2006 11:20 AM
