^ I am being thorough. You equivocate when the full IG shows limitations against mere indivduals by relying on some inexperience/damaged mind. Yet, even though it is absolutely clear that Quasar was incapable of using the UN properly, you must assume that Quasar had some inherent ability to use it to its full capacity. Unsupported speculation.
Reed knew what he had to do. Galactus trusted him with it. Reed did it. That's all you need to know to understand that a competent UN wielder can accomplish something that no IG wielder has ever done.
Your purple prose logic that equates the 616 universe to the entire Marvel Multiverse does not fly. As you stated, WM Thor w/ PG on his own endangered 616 Eternity. So did Zom. So did the Starbrand. So did Dormammu.
Bottom-line is: Full IG couldn't detect Adam Warlock and was absolutely ineffectual against Maelstrom. Any reliance on the Black Alice > Spectre rationale is based on a false cause fallacy. Just because I can manipulate/redirect force, doesn't imbue me with a greater scope of personal power. It's that simple. When the IG accomplishes a greater feat than resetting the entire Marvel Multiverse, let me know, friend. Until then, it hasn't and therefore, UN > IG.
Regardless though of resetting the multiverse we know that the ig beats the un everytime in a versus matchup. If people see the word multiverse they think it's just flat out more powerful when I don't think that is the case here. Like I said Odin has affected the multiverse on panel and I can't recall the Celestials doing so and they utterly trashed Odin.
The ig was shown to easily defeat a un user and since a greater feat has been performed since then are we to assume it's more powerful than the ig? Nope.
Not to me you weren't. You told me that Magus' was manipulating Quasar himself and not the nullifier.
You're getting confused here. Quasar was not the only one who's inexperience here with their weapon at hand. Magus' has just gotten the IG to operate when Quasar pulled the trigger. An inexperienced Magus with an incomplete IG, with but a mere thought, prevented the Nullification energy from erasing his citadel and confining it to just Quasar. Quasar pulled the trigger and did everything right, the IG gave Magus' power over the nullification energy.
There is no short comings in that fight. Both were inexperience (with Magus having an incomplete weapon), and the point of those panels were to show off the IG's power. It even states it on there that "a champion learns the word ULTIMATE carries little weight in this current contest of titans." The UN words to concentrating on your target and pulling the trigger, making sure that's all you think about. Anything else would result in a mushroom effect.
Funny thing being PG Thor couldn't even get pass Thanos, who himself couldn't get pass a skyfather. And Zom? Zom was binded by Eternity and Dormammu. Where does it say Zom lay waste to Eternity? Zom got blown away like the wind just at the presence of LT.
Adept IG users have pimp slapped Eternity and every other cosmics save LT.
LOL. What's the limitation again? That he's never used it before? Like Reed has ever used it before. And why are you scuffing at him merging two universes? 5 Cubes that created a universe along with 25 other Cubes were still below the IG. Let's ignore that as well.
Is that so? Reed's never used the IG before but since Galactus trusts in him, therefore Reed's a more competent user? Thanos trusted Quasar too so why are you saying Quasar was incapable of using the UN properly?
LOL. Dormammu got whooped and that was Dormammu's biggest feat of all time. Zom vaporized at the coming of LT. The IG has shown to stomp the cosmics times. Even Nebula who took a while to gain it's might eventually stomped the cosmics.
Bottomline is Nebula was the worst IG user ever. She took the longest time out of everyone. But you're going to ignore that and Warlock's existing outside of chaos and order along with his link to the Soul Gems.
BA is BA. BA is not the IG. Nice try though. The IG has accomplished feats greater than the UN. It's even state the word Ultimate in Ultimate Nullifier carries LITTLE WEIGHT in a contest between titans. Gee, what titans could Starlin be talking about?
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Last edited by WhiteWitchKing on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 12:34 AM
Exactly... Raw showings equals the IG pooping all over the UN. Quasar was more capable at using the UN the Reed due to his "cosmic awarness" ODG I respect your opinion but all you have in speculation my friend. You THINK that the IG made Quasar turn the UN on himself yet you have NO proof of that. There are many things that could have happened and yours isn't proven in the least on panel. What we do have on panel is that for whatever reason.. the IG shits on the UN. Period end of story.
Maybe its just Reed has a more naturally developed mind then Quasar off setting the need to make use of Cosmic Awareness. There is no I think, The Magnus stated he turned the UN on Quasar.
You have to understand on one hand, you have this gun that can shot down a multi-verse. On the other, you have this gauntlet that manipulates all actions. Wielding the gun, will not protect you have being manipulated.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
No need to add anything here, you got the goods.
Wait, one thing concerning Dormy/Umar defeating Eternity:
The ONLY reason that was feasible, was due to a "Cosmic Axis Shift"
that allowed the impossible to become possible. (basically a plot device)
Dormy/Umar combined their powers which were greater as a sum than individually,
then used the "Cosmic Axis Shift" plot device to defeat Eternity.
Oh and PG/Thor, ...
Eternity clearly meant that with time Thor would become a threat,
which is obvious because Thor was becoming more powerful by the minute,
as of course this increase in power would eventually make him infinitely powerful,
which at some point would surpass the level of Eternity/Infinity.
You covered the other stipulations involved concerning the other incidents beautifully.
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Last edited by Mr Master on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 08:30 PM
If you read back, I listed several possibilities, one of which is that Magus manipulated the nullification energies.
No, I'm not. You suggested that Nebula's inexperience explains any deficiencies when she could not detect Adam Warlock. You also suggested that Thanos' relative inexperience explains his inability to affect Maelstrom. That's a double-standard, because you don't apply that very same logic to Quasar, who by any stretch of the imagination, was not an experienced user of the UN. If you did, you wouldn't hold Quasar's ineffectuality against the UN itself. Just like you don't hold Nebula's or Thanos' ineffectuality against the IG itself. Double. Standard. Your argument is logical. But it is fallacious because you refuse to apply your logic both ways.
It showed that Magus w/ IG could beat Quasar w/ UN. That's all. And when Reed reset the Multiverse with UN, it showed that UN's scope of power > IG's scope of power. Any extraneous thought results in the user's own nullification, it can also result in the nullification of everything. Considering that you fully recognize how dangerous and easily the UN can backfire on it's own user, I find it suspicious that you believe Magus turning it back onto Quasar was this monumental feat of cosmic proportions.
And that's the best it's ever done, whereas the UN reset the entire Marvel Multiverse in a single panel. Don't ignore the simplicity of this comparison. The UN did more than the IG ever did. UN > IG.
That Quasar sucks with the UN. Reed didn't suck with the UN, that simple. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that Magus merged two universes. I also wholeheartedly acknowledge that 30 CCUs could create one and then merge two universes. That doesn't change the fact that when compared to the complete resetting of the entire Marvel Multiverse, such feats are utterly laughable in comparison.
Reed's a more competent user because Galactus put it into Reed's hands, Reed understood what he had to do, and Reed actually did it. Quasar is a less competent user because Thanos explicitly ridicules his supposed "trusted choice," Quasar struggled for several pages to activate it and then utterly failed.
That's Magus turning the UN back onto Quasar. It's speculation he controlled the nullfication energy. As stated before, it's a possibility that is just as cogent as Magus using the Mind Gem on Quasar, or the Space Gem to teleport Quasar into the nullification sphere, etc. Yet, even should we stipulate that Magus turned those energies back onto Quasar, you still ignore your fallacious reliance of Black Alice > Spectre rationale. Manipulating another's powers does not necessarily suggest that you possess a greater scope of personal power. Black Alice may have punked Spectre, but no way is Black Alice more personally powerful than Spectre.
Everything else you said is repeating the same fallacious logic above: (i) you're using double-standards which I completely cornered you into; (ii) you're relying on simplistic logic; and (iii) you're ignoring the plain and obvious.
In summation: (i) Magus w/IG > Quasar w/UN is a reflection of the wielder's capability, not the artifact's capability, as you so convincingly argue for when trying to excuse Nebula's ignorance of Warlock and Thanos' impotency against Maelstrom; (ii) even assuming that Magus manipulated the UN's energies directly, BA > Spectre rationale fails, since manipulation of another's energies does not necessitate possessing a greater scope of personal power; because: (iii) we both know Black Alice may have punked Spectre, but on her own she does not have feats over Spectre and we both know that an IG user may have punked a UN user, but on its own the IG does not have feats over UN.
Absolutely.
An inexperience Magus with an incomplete weapon stomped an inexperience Quasar and his weapon. Then moved onto merge two universes and manipulate time. But I know, you'll put Quasar's inexperience over Magus' inexperience and lack of a complete weapon.
Right. An incomplete IG manipulated the UN's power and merged two universes faster than five CC but you're going to ignore that aren't you? It's 5 CCs not 30 CCs. The 30 CCs were from Infinity Crusade and even it was not comparable to the Gauntlet.
And that's right, Reed is some how better than Quasar when both were inexperienced.
Possible? Where did it state that Magus was messing with his mind? The Nullification energy engulfed him. Once he was gone? How was said energy contained then since its user was nullified?
Everybody punked Spectre. When Black Alice is on a level that is deemed a threat to existence by the guardian of the multiverse then we'll talk.
But you aren't? Reed, who's never used the UN, is some how better than Quasar? Thanos trusted in Quasar just as Galactus trusted in Reed. When it came down to it, both fried they're weapons. Thanos was criticizing Quasar b/c he hadn't fired it, giving Magus time to acquire IG. It had nothing to do with Quasar's competence since Magus interrupted the UN using the CCs in his possession - something Thanos did not know.
The idea that Reed is some how more competent than Quasar because Quasar struggled to activate his weapon, due to Magus interrupting the UN with his cosmic artifacts, is ridiculous.
Your BA example of this matter does not reflect the IG at all in that the IG has feats to back it up that would put it on a level equal to or greater than the UN. BA does not have consistent showings that put her anywhere near that of a skyfather much less Spectre.
The IG does not have feats over the UN? Keep telling yourself that, 'kay. The UN has one feat. One feat. LOL. The IG's has feats that include the LT believing a struggle for it would destroy existence. But lets ignore that part and an incomplete IG toying with the UN energies.
Because you rely on Nebula's inexperience to excuse her failings against Adam Warlock and because you rely on Thanos' relative inexperience to excuse his impotence against Maelstrom.
I'm not ignoring that. You can try to put words into my mouth, but I specifically acknowledge your accounts. What you fail to acknowledge is that when you compare those feats to resetting the entire Marvel Multiverse instantly, those feats are laughable.
Agreed. As long as you're not being sarcastic.
I said it's possible. Not conclusive. Just as your suggestion that Magus manipulated the nullfication energies is equally possible, but not conclusive. It's not conclusive because it's never stated. Fact. And your inquiring as to whether the energies were contained presupposes that the energies would have expanded uncontrollably. Why do you assume that?
It appears the point went right over your head. I'm not suggesting that Black Alice > Spectre. That's the faulty logic you're relying on because you're using analagous, but faulty, logic to assume that Magus w/IG > Quasar w/ UN.
Quasar, Cap and Thanos all doubted Quasar's own competence. Even when the Ultimate Nullifier was operational because Doom and Kang destroyed the controls, Quasar still struggled. And bottom-line, Quasar utterly failed. Suggesting that Quasar properly managed the UN is pure attenuation. But like I said, it doesn't matter. Because even if you do assume he fired it properly, you still rely on the BA > Spectre fallacy, like so:
IG has no feats comparable to resetting the Multiverse outside of punking Quasar. None. At least now you're getting it. Unfortunately, you realize that you're getting completely cornered because you're now trying to suggest that the IG is comparable to the UN with streched logic like this:
Once again, the IG's claim to fame is some statement that the IG could destroy the 616 universe. That's the same claim that Eternity made about PG Thor. That's the same claim Living Tribunal made about Starbrand and Zom, although their powers were apparently endangering the whole multiverse. But hey, that's what they said. So what? Purple prose pales in comparison to on-panel feats. The IG has no feat that comes anywhere close to resetting the entire Marvel Multiverse instantly. Nuff said.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Like defeating the power of the Marvel Multiverse (616 Eternity) instantly?
Technically speaking (concerning just Multiversal feats) IG = UN
Taking into consideration everything that was stated about both the IG and the UN,
by the LT/Eternity/Galactus/Thanos/Warlock
and the freakin writer Jim Starlin himself in an interview,
IG >>> UN by leaps and bounds.
In fact, the LT also stated that the IG could basically destroy
both the Multiverse housing the Ultraverse,
and the Prime Multiverse (contains 616)
if reassembled in the wrong hands.
KMC Community Forums
Mar 22nd, 2009 09:42 AM
... 
Sure, that's what happened.
