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The end scene of AWE
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PirateDiva
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LovelyOne
nope** lol
well yeah..he did leave with the Lizzie twinkle in his eye whilst singing that song


I was about to say!!! lol


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:30 PM
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Mistypirate
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alina
I thought that whole Baby-thing was cut confused
But even IF it was in, I believe the child was supposed to look like Will AND Jack. Will and Liz are separated again in AWE, she is with Jack when they meet Teague, who knows what can happen while they are together? We might get an implied "love-scene". Something with them sharing a passionate look, then Liz walking into Jack's cabin and Jack shutting the door after her with a huge smirk...I dunno. But I think I would take the Baby-ending to the rumoured Elizabeth becomes Mrs Fish-face...


You know what, I was thinking about that. Maybe they will imply something. And then at the end people would say Hey how did that happened? But when you looked back, that hint or scene would imply how that really happened. That would be a shocker eek!


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:31 PM
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katelovespirate
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its undemocratic for her to sleep with Will and not Jack. wink

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:32 PM
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Mistypirate
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by katelovespirate
its undemocratic for her to sleep with Will and not Jack. wink



WHAT??? UNDERDEMOCRATIC??? confused

I don't get it....


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Last edited by Mistypirate on Nov 11th, 2006 at 09:36 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:33 PM
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Mistypirate
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Does it mean that is not going to be her choice if she does sleep with Will? But in what way?


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:38 PM
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LovelyOne
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quote:
"How do you create a sense of closure for Dead Man's Chest even though you have more story to tell in the third film?

Rossio: The closure comes from a resolution of the thematic argument of the film. While there may be some plot issues still dangling, as long as the film makes a definitive statement in terms of the emotional story of some of the characters, there's a sense of it being complete. Ideally (knock on wood).

Elliott: What's really interesting is -- if there was no sequel after this, if there was no third movie, with the basic emotional moments and what happens at the end of this one -- I would be comfortable having it go out [like this]. We would have resolved the plot of Davy Jones differently, but, in terms of what happens with Jack and Will and Elizabeth and the conclusion of our movie, I feel comfortable that it would work whether you had a sequel coming up or not."


http://www.csweb.ws/csdaily/trenche...sioElliott.html



------

imagine we don't know squat about AWE.

With Elizabeth we see her make a choice to make a commitment to Will by rejecting Jack despite having feelings for him and vise versa, then she clearly makes a commitment to Jack before the movie ends. Terry basically says she's lost someone she may well love and it reveals a part of her that she cant live with. Remember all the emphasis on the GOOD MAN being dead from her and the world

With Jack. we see him not wanting to want a woman but at the end he goes back to the pearl appears to be saving Elizabeth above everyone else because of the fact she sees him leave and then comes back with a godlike shot. she clings to his leg etc...He leaves "desiring Elizabeth all the more"

Will makes a commitment to his father and he then sees how much Elizabeth wants to get Jack back because he thinks she loves him and he's willing to let her.

-----

Now speculation on the AWE ending

Jack leaves AWE with two whores under his arms exactly the same as he was in movie 1?

Elizabeth and Will get married and remain together forever??

Well DMC certainly doesn't hold the closure for the franchise if THAT is how it really ends..so are T&T lying in that interview?

or are they holding a twist up their sleeves with the ending of AWE?

Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 11th, 2006 at 09:59 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:49 PM
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PirateDiva
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Now thats an ending i definately want thrown out the window!!!


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:55 PM
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Alina
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by LovelyOne
I agree Kate..in one way.

but when you think back to the end of DMC. Elizabeth Killed a man...KILLED a man so that she could be with Will you would think that was a big statement of where her heart truly lies..but what did we actually see afterward?

I've said this hundreds of times...T&T say the all the closure needed is in DMC ..I sense we may see this repeated but on a much larger scale..they said if they were to end the franchise now they would have ended it getting the point across and would be fine with leaving PotC like this.

Obviously most people left that movie believing Elizabeth loved Jack even after making a pretty big statement that she chose Will.


I'm actually working on a long essay with my dad about POTC. He used to teach film student at the university, so he knows how to analyze a movie. This is what he and I talked about after he saw DMC for the first time. It will included in our essay once it's done. I posted this on Swans and Sparrows a while ago.


As I've mentioned before he used to teach film students at the university so I asked him to keep an eye out on certain scenes, like the sinking wedding dress and tell me how he interpreted the movie seen with his analytic objective glasses (I might add, I haven't corrupted him in anyway with my opinions, not that I could, he doesn't even know I'm a JE shipper) We actually ended with 3 hours discussion and I wish I could remember it all(some mirrors what have already been discussed)

So, what he told me was first: That Jack and Elizabeth belong together now, though not in a traditional romance way like WE because that's not who they are.
They found each other in DMC, all this was very clear in their scenes. Their infatuation is strong because they have a common base, they live on the edge.
Here we have two people who truly understand each other, unlike WE.
DMC is thick with symbols, Elizabeth's sinking dress, her being behind barres in her dress. Notice how she isn't free until the dress is off.
The sinking wedding dress is a symbol of Elizabeth's goodbye to her former life, a symbol that she has unconsciously chosen not to be a housewife, not to be married to Will. Even if she did, her mind would never be with him, she has said goodbye to that. According to Jung water is a symbol of the unconscious, not a coincidence that her wedding dress sinks in water.
Her "I'm so ready to be married" is ,like it has been talked about her way of telling Jack that she is ready for sex, that she wants it. Which, of course Jack is quick to catch up on. His proposal is basically about that. He has no intentions to actually marry her in the traditional sense.
Elizabeth's rant about "Honour and decency ect" is her trying to convince herself of her morals and standards from her earlier life.
But look at her, she is in men's clothing. Her old morals are slowly slipping away.
They could have easily chosen a story where she pays her way of on a ship, but instead they choose to make her dress up like a man, manipulate men ect. She is starting to act like a pirate.
In their conversation they basically state how much alike they are and more importantly they accept it. Jack is the first to admit it, Elizabeth follows when she says "because you and I are alike" there, acceptance, a statement of what Jack just said. In the "persuade me scene" it is very clear what's going on in her head, but when Norrington approaches he represents her old life and values and she goes into denial. Enter compass.


Jack's return to the ship can be been seen from the romantic POV, that he return to her, bit it is more about him being tired, he is tried of running. In the beginning he is very adamant to run away from what is haunting him, but he know now that in the end you can't keep running, you're not free. He is tired, he wants it to end.
He knows what decision he has to make, but Jack is not a character who wants to make decisions until it is absolutely necessary.
He prefers that others make the choice for him and this is exactly what Elizabeth does and for that he is grateful. Hence the smile. You can says she is an angel setting him free.
Also that by making that choice she has ultimately chosen Jack, Not Will. Will is now on level with the rest of the crew. She says
"It's after you,not us" US as in the whole crew. She doesn't say Will.
Jack admires and respect her for that because she's proved how alike they are. Jack trying to get out of the shackles is a instinct panic reaction and no doubt had the Kraken not showed up he would probably have jumped overboard to save his life.

Elizabeth crying in the sack, has to do with her believing that Jack is dead and now she will never know for sure if he truly is the good man she believes him to be. Hence to why she doesn't drink. The question she'll never have answered is: Would he have stayed even if she hadn't shackled him?? She mourns him, but she also mourns herself because of she had to do. She knows she did "the right thing" she tries to make it legal but it is hard because it hurts and an once of guilt is present. She is human after all.


According to my dad, there really isn't a choice about who she'll choose, she has already chosen. The interesting part will be how it will play out. But everything with Jack and Liz leads to them belong together. Soul mates. The choice has been made. The very minute she kissed Jack, she made her choice and said goodbye to her old life, her old values.
She can marry Will, perhaps out of loyalty, but even if they went back to P.R and played house, her mind would never be there, something in her eyes would tell that she is somewhere else. Likely she would leave after a few years.
As for Jack, her would mourn the loss of her, comfort himself with a wench because that's who he is, but like with Elizabeth, something in him will always tell where he is: with her.
It wil be likely that Jack and Liz won't "end up together" as a couple, but with a look (a lot with these two are about looks) they (and we) will know that someday they will find each other.

Jack and Elizabeth have both done the same thing, betrayed others without any scruples but it doesn't make them rotten human beings, they make choices depending on the situation at hand. What is interesting about Jack is that he isn't the type to seek revenge: He sold his soul for his ship, it is fate that he should have it. Shooting Barbossa is more a lees a way to bring things back in order,a tool to find find the balance with chaos and cosmos. Hadn't Jack shot him, he would have died otherwise. You don't mess with Fate. Or the order of Nature. The Kraken and Davy Jones both being squids isn't a coincidence.
Elizabeth sets Jack free, "Our debt is settled". Jack won't seek revenge on Liz, he might be depressed and a darker character, but he he has no reason to be angry with her.

The thing is when you have 2 people falling in love (WE) then a 3 person enters (Jack) and make them see each other and themselves as they truly are.

Will is very one-dementional, he's obsessed by being the hero and his morals.
The problem with Will is that he is too rash, he sees thing very black and white there is nothing in between. "All pirates are bad" "Davy is evil" ect. But things doesn't work that way.In his world there is no "Grey-area". His morals tells him that he is the knight in shinning armour and that he's always right because he has the highest morals.Unlike Jack and Liz, they have nuances.
Will will free his father because his morals tells him so, Will's high morals and insistence that he knows he right all the time will be his downfall. He doesn't see the nuances in things, he doesn't "learn".
Unlike Elizabeth....it is interesting that when she is with Jack she is more of a independent character, she is herself, when she's with Will, she is not.

Will has every potential to be the Capt of TFD, (touch of destiny)he will then be the hurt hero, thinking about the love who got away. He will thrive on it, because that is his role, the hurt knight who never got his love.
Will goes with them to World's end, only partly because of Elizabeth but mostly because now he had been so noble to suggest it, you don't back down on that. Not to mention that he can get the Pearl and save his father. Again his morals play in.
It is that which gets him to tells Liz, "if there was anything to be done" because the what the hero does. He gallantly proposes this, not' because he wants to but because that's the right thing to do. He doesn't want Jack back, Jack, in Will's world, is "bad, he's untrustworthy, he betrayed him.

DMC is very much like Faust in many ways, mostly around davy Jones,who can be compared to Mephisto. He shows up when you're at your lowest and make you a lousy deal and you end up with selling you soul. There is a lot of philosophy in it, it revolves around choices a lot. Fate and Destiny play a huge part of DMC. Especially in regards to Jack and Liz, who both have made the choice that they belong together. The romance is now between JE, not WE. But it wil not be fairytale romance, it might be bittersweet. But they are "together now",bound together by Fate, they have found each other.

So, that was the Essenes of my long discussion with my dad. I'm not saying he is right,he hasn't written the movie, but to hear this from a man who has spend 30 years of his life analyzing movies warms my heart. Especially because he can see the Sparrabeth.

(I squeed when he said that Elizabeth's choice has been made, that she has chosen Jack. Remember the writes said that her choice was made by the end of DMC? )

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 09:58 PM
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LovelyOne
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thats very interesting^^ thank you..and YES although the most climactic moment appears to be her choosing Will over Jack and making a pretty bold statement that her love of Will is the ultimate thing

that is NOT her final choice in the movie..she chooses JACK SPARROW..and its the more heart warming and emotional of decisions I might add.

but funny how she chooses him once she realises "what she's got once its GONE" meaning the good man..the side of jack she most adores and probably loves is DEAD

interesting possible spoiler for AWE:

"Jack realizes something about himself that stems from what happened in DMC. With the help of Elizabeth and his father, he is able to overcome this struggle. It is at this moment that Elizabeth realizes where her heart truly lies."

Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 11th, 2006 at 10:14 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:05 PM
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Alina
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I think the reason she chooses him in that moment is so she can "avoid" the consequences of her choice or at least postpone them...But things doesn't work that way, sooner or later she will have to face it. I think that's why she is trying to push Jack away in P3, if the leaked script is true...

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:15 PM
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LovelyOne
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alina
I think the reason she chooses him in that moment is so she can "avoid" the consequences of her choice or at least postpone them...But things doesn't work that way, sooner or later she will have to face it. I think that's why she is trying to push Jack away in P3, if the leaked script is true...


you mean at the end of DMC??

IMO she chose Jack there over a happy ending with Will because Jack needs her in his life she is what brings out the very best man in him..this is the side of Jack that Elizabeth both loves an fears because it means she can love him in return. She also uses it to her advantage quite a bit.

in the hut apparently she is crying because she's just killed a man she may well love (good man) and it reveals a part of herself that she cant live with. Which is IMO killing a good man she may well love and using his goodness against him as a way to shut him out which ultimatley kills that man.

Will appears to spot this and allowes her to give up an ending with him because he is basically tied into something else now and he can see how loyal she is to Jack.

(imagining we dont know anything about AWE yet)

Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 11th, 2006 at 10:27 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:23 PM
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LovelyOne
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so my answer to Liz to feel better at the end of DMC?

Stop being afraid of loving Jack the good man. Him being a "bad man" and betraying Will obviously doesnt make it easier for you to shut him out in the long run because deep down this man is a good man and you know it and you dont want him to be gone forever..and STOP using his emotions as a weakness against him..christ you are almost as cold hearted as Calypso.

my advice for movie 3?

if you care for him make it up to him by helping him out of what ever you did to him at the end of DMC..which I'm guessing is making him loathe his honest side so much that he represses it(remind you of Davy Jones anyone?) This may make it easier for you to concentrate more on Will...BUT if you really do love that good man that is Jack, do you really want him to be gone forever?

Sorry edited that about 1 million times laughing out loud

Last edited by LovelyOne on Nov 11th, 2006 at 10:43 PM

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:30 PM
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Alina
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Yeah, I mean at the end of DMC, I would like to explain it further but it's almost midnight here and I'm dead-tired and off to bedsleep ...so, see you all tomorrow. smile

Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:37 PM
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Mistypirate
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That was really interesting and good wow. Totally agree with everything


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Old Post Nov 11th, 2006 10:37 PM
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Swann&Sparrow
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You know some one, I think it was Surreal, had mentioned that "Elizabeth realizes where her heart truly lies" might mean that she realizes that her and Will belong together.

WHY WOULD T&T MAKE LIZZIE RE-REALIZE SOMETHING. SHE'S ALREADY SAID SHE LOVED WILL, SHE CHOSE HIM IN CotBP!!!!!

There is no point whatsoever in doing a spanner, especially if there is nothing to do but put them to trials. No one is going to go to the movies to see what Will and Lizzie will overcome in their relationship. That's just annoying and stupid. That would make no money, much less a BILLION DOLLARS.

So why would she just realize that she loves Will again? That's just no point. She realizes that she loves Jack, not Will. What kind of idiots do you think T&T take us for? They know we're digging up interviews and symbolisms in their scripts. They know we've dedicated our time into diving deeper into POTC.

I think they have enough respect for their adoring audience to not make a sappy, idiotic, together in death, EW ending. That's just plain old boring and non-sensicle. It just doesn't add up.

All the chemistry, the drama and symbolism would go to waste if not a J/E ending. I will really be disappointed if it was EW, that just plain out says 'You're Stupid' from T&T.

Obviously, we're intellegent, sofisticated, mature people. And I can only hope T&T can see that too.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 03:13 AM
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Mistypirate
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Oh No It wasn't Surreal the one that said that "Elizabeth realizes where her heart truly lies" it was LOVELYONE. And yes I couldn't agree with you more, why would Liz realized that she loves will the most and that her heart lies with him. She was about to marry him, she is supposed to be in love with him. IMO That would be pointless and stupid.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 04:01 AM
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Pirates life fo
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I just watched DMC again a couple days ago and paid close attention to the encounters between Jack and Liz.

It seemed to me that Liz's interest in Jack is lust not love. He is the older guy. A Pirate who is free and need not answer to anyone. A life that she doesnt know yet thinks is 'cool'.

Jack's view of Liz is the cute young girl he can talk crap with and flirt with just to get a reaction. None of his comments to her were at all deep and meaningful. It seemed like he said what he said for shock value knowing that she is a spoiled pampered rich girl out in the world for the first time without daddy.

When Liz kissed Jack it was to distract him and tie him to the deck. She left him to die so she could get away. Is that the act of a girl who is truly in love with someone?!?

After the kiss Jack says 'Pirate' to her. I dont think he fell madly in love with her. It seemed to me that he just gained respect for her at that moment. That he had realized that she was no longer the spolied little girl that he can tease.


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 04:30 AM
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a-k-a-amber
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Pirates life fo
I just watched DMC again a couple days ago and paid close attention to the encounters between Jack and Liz.

It seemed to me that Liz's interest in Jack is lust not love. He is the older guy. A Pirate who is free and need not answer to anyone. A life that she doesnt know yet thinks is 'cool'.

Jack's view of Liz is the cute young girl he can talk crap with and flirt with just to get a reaction. None of his comments to her were at all deep and meaningful. It seemed like he said what he said for shock value knowing that she is a spoiled pampered rich girl out in the world for the first time without daddy.

When Liz kissed Jack it was to distract him and tie him to the deck. She left him to die so she could get away. Is that the act of a girl who is truly in love with someone?!?

After the kiss Jack says 'Pirate' to her. I dont think he fell madly in love with her. It seemed to me that he just gained respect for her at that moment. That he had realized that she was no longer the spolied little girl that he can tease.


wow you have a REALLY good point *visibly faulters*

i dont like that...


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 04:33 AM
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Pirates life fo
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People tend to read into things what they want to see. Im not on any ship, unless you count the Monkey/Liz ship. I watched it with an unbiased view. There may be something very strong there for Jack but why would a Pirate show it so childishly. If Jack was truly in love wouldnt he just sweep her off her feet and carry her away? Remember people...'Pirate'


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Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 04:47 AM
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Surreal_44
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Exactly what I see in the movie, pirates life fo....


I'm actually a Norribeth shipper, but sadly...*cuddles poor ship* It will not happen. *sighs*


I just don't see J/E as a viable ship. *shrug* I didn't even find the kiss all that nice. I thought it looked like Liz was trying too hard and Jack just seemed puzzled but pleased to be kissing her.


But that's just me. big grin

Old Post Nov 12th, 2006 04:51 AM
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