its interesting how much Jack's character has changed by movie 3. a little off topic i know, but in movie 1 he seemed so vulnerable and edgy--- more dangerous, perhaps, than the other 2 films, and yet, at the same time, more human.
film 2 he was a riot, but he had stepped deeper into the realm of "cartoon character"... except, that is, for that final scene starting with the line "we're not free yet, love" there's something about that scene that makes me want to see Jack older and more jaded, to see him less as a funny person and more as an emotionally complex novel-type figure.
film 3, for me, was the simplest his character had been. they seemed to massively reduce the depth of his character in this one. in my mind anyways. his motivations were "rum and salty wenches" and "not dying"... which are pretty lame motivations to drive his actions. Which is probably why I didn't fancy him much in that film. Revenge, Lust, Insatiable greed for some heathen treasure--- all of those would have re-worked much better.
The thing is, Jack is the character in the series I identify most with-- see most of myself in. So it was important to me that they completed his character arc in a satisfying way.
And for some reason, I always assumed because Jack was the money-maker of the series, they would give him what he wanted in the end. That was my one comfort. T and T are notorious for granting their hero's heart's desire in the final moments. In a good way, of course. And I always thought, Jack is the money of this series. Whatever he ends up wanting, they will have to give him or the audience will hate it (especially after forcing us all to watch Jack DIE a tragic painful death, among other things). But I was sooooo wrong. Not only did Jack not get what he want (and I'm not saying it was Lizzie--- it was immortality, the Pearl, and continued freedom) he LOST EVERYTHING that was important to him except his ability to drink, it seems. And not only did Jack end badly, but EVERYONE lost what they wanted most, it seems. Barbossa and Gibbs seemed to do pretty well out of the deal, but they were the only ones.
I'm sorry. I keep saying the same thing over and over. I guess I'm in denial.
Gender: Female Location: Drinking rum with Jack in a dingy
Great Video.....this is the best j/e vid to Iris that i've ever seen..and there are plenty out there. It's a perfect story and again tells the story of Sparrabeth and how it should have been......too bad this trilogy was written by two egotistical men with a one track mind......
__________________ All my thanks to savvysparrowluv!
Gender: Female Location: Drinking rum with Jack in a dingy
I agree with you Kate..and I admire you girls for wanting Liz's faithfulness breaking the curse...but I don't see it that way. I'm too much into Jack and Elizabeth as the true love story of AWE. You all will be appalled by my way of thinking...and it's the way of thinking with all of us who post at Tasty Pirates...but we shouted with Glee when we found out the curse couldn't be broken...Ditte3, I've seen you there, so I know you know what I mean. It gave us hope....the stuff I've been talking about...Will is dead, Liz is a widow, but she is very much alive...and so is Jack....
Willo, you said it yourself a while back....it's crazy to think that Will would be devastated without Liz...he's pretty confident and more independent by the end of the trilogy......as a good man, I think he would be okay with Elizabeth living her life to the fullest. Afterall, he is heartless, he is fullfilling his destiny as Captain of The Flying Dutchman, and he is with his father...the story goes that he must see his true love one day every ten years...it doesn't specify that she must have sex with him...just be there for him.....OMG I am giving myself a headache over this silly thing! LOL
For all points and purposes he is DEAD. He has no heart.....he died in Elizabeth's arms, jack helped him stab the heart...but that just gave him immortality. I know I keep repeating myself.
I guess I'm like you, Kate...I'm in denial (but perhaps for not the same reasons)....i know this is a fantasy film, obviously - when you consider the Giant Tia that bursts into a million crabs.......but I find it hard to believe that a man with no heart, who is basically dead, can procreate. Tex, you say proof that a child was born is proof that he was able to have sex and procreate...but how do we know that for sure? Is the fact that she had on his boot and he nuzzle's her knee proof that they had sexual intercourse. Maybe they just spent the day frolicking in the sand and playing hide and seek and enjoyed each other's company - but not necessarily having sexual intercourse..(I know I live in a dream world, it's obvious t and t want us to assume they did)
Like I said, in my world.....I hold to fact that the marriage was not consummated in the traditional fashion.....sure, Will's heart has always belonged to Liz and she will guard it...but she can also find mortal love on earth....I say she seeks out Jack, they have adventures...and get together........never mind, I said this same thing a few posts back.....It's my own fanfic in my mind....it's my own "interpreted" ending to the trilogy. I like Will, he's an okay guy...but he's no Jack Sparrow.....and why should it be okay for Jack to end up with nothing and be heartbroken...yet, it's not okay for Will....Pshhh...to that I say....Will is forced into Piracy......Lizzy and Jack embrace Piracy.....They are The Pirates of the Caribbean in my book. Will can go off on his merry way and ferry losts souls with Daddy Dearest...and then return to see his first love and his old friend Jack Sparrow and their son. So be it....I know, you all think I'm crazy for thinking this way...after all I am a married woman....been married to the same man for over 10 years...but I still fantasize about the ultimate romance, and for me Jack and LIz represents that ultimate romance we all crave!
For those of you interested.....here is Chapter 3 and 4 of Gealuv's Tragic Love Story (Jack and Elizabeth)....
Gender: Female Location: May or may not be somewhere else.
AWEsome points everyone... I agree...
about the Jack part though, it really is true.. I mean, I could see Jack having much more motivation than wenches, rum and the fear of dying... something.. deeper, that they didn't explore or something in AWE...
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
"Willo, you said it yourself a while back....it's crazy to think that Will would be devastated without Liz...he's pretty confident and more independent by the end of the trilogy......as a good man, I think he would be okay with Elizabeth living her life to the fullest."---------lovethemtigers
Whow, hang on a second...I'm sure you're not lying, but I don't remember ever saying that because Will had become a more mature, independent person by AWE that he wouldn't be devastated to be forever separated from Elizabeth. No, unfortunately, lovethemtigers, my opinion is that his love for her only grows throughout the series. Will's like my 5th favorite character when he's supposed to be in everyone's top 3 since he's part of the trio, but I will defend him when it comes to how he is with Elizabeth.
Yes, he can be an adult around her now and isn't reduced to the buckle-shoed, "whatever you say, Miss Swann" kid we first saw him as in COTBP. He's grown up, dabbled in piracy, experienced death. And even when he thought he'd lost Elizabeth to Jack, he wanted to make things right with her. Yes, he went after Jack to get the Pearl, but I think he also went because that's what Elizabeth wanted. The DMC commentary says that Will is willing to still be there for her and make her happy even if she wouldn't love him.
What I think you're referring to is that in AWE, he doesn't seem that upset when it's time to go. I think that's more the writers' fault than Orlando's or Gore's. Think how that would traumatize the willabethers to see their couple bawling their eyes out because they're going to be separated. That would have almost made ME cry and I was unsatisfied with it. But yeah, Will and Elizabeth seem pretty calm...whereas me....I would be screaming and holding onto his legs yelling "just don't go!"
Gender: Female Location: Drinking rum with Jack in a dingy
I was referring to the post you made on Sept. 24th...What About Will?.....in it you say that Will has grown and matured throughout the trilogy and he wasn't some fragile man that wouldn't be able to live without Elizabeth.......
Willofthewisp wrote......
{Okay, going in a different direction here, but I'm mad. Maybe it's just the stupid idea to invite a terrorist-harboring dictator to an American university that's upsetting me, but I want to pick on the willabethers for just a bit. Willabethers, I defend you a lot and deep down don't mind W/E, really dont, but I want to tear down a huge arguement some of them make.
If Elizabeth chooses Jack, what about Will?
Keep in mind in a triangle, and there was one, there is always someone that is left out. "But Elizabeth only had feelings of lust." Well, lust is part of romantic feelings and romantic feelings define a triangle. So, I have to turn it around: what about Jack? While he might be over Liz by the end of the series, he does not seem happy with how his life is. He doesn't have anything of his own and is alone. No man is an island, not even loners. You'll find that even loners have a small number of close confidantes. So I refuse to buy into the arguement that Jack is easier to appease than Will would have been. Will would have been devastated and I would have felt for him. I really would have. But while some openly show their grief as Will would, others pick up dangerous habits (such as parading around with loose women with diseases), put their faith into the wrong things (such as the fact that Barbossa would never EVER try to take the Pearl again), and withdraw (such as hopping into a small boat with only a bottle of rum to keep you company). I'm not saying he's the way he is just because of Elizabeth. He is not defined by her and she is not defined by him. But I don't think he's in a self-satisfied place, and imo, he never was.
So what about Will? Will would have been upset, naturally. Will loved Elizabeth for a long time, although technically, James "had her first," so you can't argue that Will had her first. In fact, he somewhat stole her from James. In this kind of world, it didn't matter how Elizabeth felt about James because she had no real say in the matter. She had a good father that would not have forced her, but in the scene where her maid is tucking her in, she is considering marrying James, probably out of a sense of duty. Will isn't some fragile thing that is going to break and then go on a killing spree. The series has shown him to be a strong, brave, mature adult who can adapt to situations out of his comfort zone. That kind of man not only can start fresh doing whatever he wants, but can find a woman who will love him tremendously. And that may have been a better fate than being away from a wife and child for 10 whole years. Just my opinion.}
__________________ All my thanks to savvysparrowluv!
Gender: Female Location: Drinking rum with Jack in a dingy
No I'm not referring to the fact that he's not all upset when they say bye, actually I never really thought about it.....I just figured he had a smile on his face cuz of what had just occurred between him and Lizzy and he knew he'd get to see her again in 10 years
J/K...the ending of AWE sucks....for all three characters......but oh well, that's hollywood!
__________________ All my thanks to savvysparrowluv!
so true. the ending DOES suck for everyone. BOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Why did they do that? I can't force myself to believe T and T actually LIKED that ending unless they are just plain S and M. Were they just trying to leave a sense of dis-satisfaction in case they wanted to continue their money-making spree? did they get bitter at the films that had been their greatest success and adopt some elaborate experiment to see how terrible they could make it while still making money? did Johnny object to happy endings for any of the characters because it wouldn't portray him as a serious-enough actor? WTF WENT WRONG THERE, PEOPLE?!?! I guess we'll never know... unless for some reason they actually put some meat into the commentary, which i doubt.
I've switched over to Eva Green as my new choice for the perfect new love interest for Jack Sparrow. They would look STUNNING together.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
There will be no meat in the commentary. There will be b*tching that the audience doesn't get what's going on and they will have no idea why.
I wasn't trying to jump on you. I just wasn't sure what you were quoting me on. Now that I think about it, this new ending not only opens up possibilities for Elizabeth but for Will also. Who's to say he's incapable of falling in love with a woman he may pick up? It's very rewarding saving people's lives and because Will is so nice and noble, he would want to take care of her and things would just happen. Now, I ask myself would my husband and I end our marriage if the same thing happened to us? I don't know. Right now I don't think I could bring myself to do such a thing. But eventually I would die and he would be left alone on his one day.
This is what they have to look forward to. It's a willabeth, but it's very short and explains exactly what he will have to go through once she's gone.
i vote that Will breaks faith. I'm thinking, send Will on his own journey as a character, a la Silk. You know, he loves Elizabeth, his heart is faithful to her, but the seas change him, he rescues some damsel in distress and falls prey to her seductions, and finds himself becoming more wrapped up in the dark world he has to be a part of. So he freaks out and wonders why Jack didn't let him die, but ends up having a chance to save a lot of people. Then Jack finds him and says he found a way to make Elizabeth immortal, and he also found a way to "trade jobs" so to speak, and offers to take over the post of the Flying Dutchman so that Will can be with Elizabeth. Then Will has a big moment of decision, but ultimately accepts his fate, stays aboard the Flying Dutchman, and sends Jack to Elizabeth with a message that he loves her deeply but their paths have been sundered. Elizabeth understands and moves on with her life accordingly. She and Jack have a child, and Elizabeth comes to "the spot" after ten years to see Will again and "have closure" or whatever. They both accept their new lives.
there are just a million ways to resolve it in a better fashion. or rather, in a fashion that makes sparrabeth fans happy.
i'm kind of no longer a sparrabether. Film 1 and 2, absolutely. But if I seriously take film 3, i just don't think so anymore. T and T did a good job of killing the dream.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
lol. Someone should wave their arms about and chant "it was all a dream. A dreeeeam." They'll wake up and Will won't have had to experience death and be cursed forever. He's a little bitter on the rescue ship about him and Liz, but when the crew stopped for some 7-Up in Sri Lanka, he met a beautiful Indian noblewoman who was smart and fun and had a talent for making swords herself...but she needed a teacher to help her use them. Elizabeth was relieved to see Will finally happy and knew she would make things right with Jack when they found him. Tia just brought Barbossa back for the hell of it, no pieces of 8. She just liked watching him walk. Norrington? Oh, he's alive and well and the good CEO of the East India Trading Company. His employees call him "Admiral Christmas." Swann? He's a baker now, feeling a great sense of freedom in simply making pies.
So they all find Jack. Gibbs is really happy to see his best friend again and as a thank you, Jack "bequeaths" him Scarlett and Giselle. "Use them wisely," he says, "too much and certain parts will fall off of you. Use them too little and well, then you're just gay." Gibbs looks forward to his Tortuga misadventures with them.
Beckett...Beckett suffered a massive heart attack after seeing that kid get hanged. The last words on his lips were, "Jack...damn he's hot." Puzzled, his men buried him and sought Norrington to replace him.
Davy Jones, bored after being such an ass for so many years, ran into Calypso at a bar in Laos and fell in love with her all over again. They ran into each other's arms and shared a spectacular Hollywood kiss, changing Davy back into a human and saving his crew. They all chose to ferry the souls of those lost at sea as one big happy family. Sometimes on foggy nights near the ocean, you can hear them singing their ancient song, "Come to My Window."
Jack? He was rescued of course! The Locker stuff actually happened, and yes, he did look terrified of Liz for a little while, but time went on and when Will left with his really hot princess, Jack decided he had wasted enough time trying to score with the goat and finally declared his feelings for the woman he loved. All her dreams come true, Elizabeth jumped into his arms and started kissing the beads right off of him.
Gender: Female Location: WheRe JacK is I'M There By His Side
LOL....I Like that Version Soooo Much Better!!!
*raises her arms, waving them about and chants "it was all a dream. A dreeeeam" Waits for time to rewine but nothing happens* Oh Bugger! Sorry Willo I tried, maybe I just dont have that Tia Dahlma touch eh?
As most of you girls know,'m a romantic softie at heart, and in my mind - every kiss has its own background music. For me, this one captured that Sparrabeth angst The opening music is from "Clocks" by Coldplay, Disney and Coldplay own it all.
Miz KatelovesPirate, when he says "we're not free yet" is he is as naked and raw, as he was in PotC when they were on Rum Island. Gawd, those two scenes really showed the mark of him, no more stories, no more enhancements, no more swagger or pomp, just the man, wondering where the idealistic boy had gotten off to--like Jack might be seeing the life he thought to be endless, with all things possible, just flying away. I don't know of any moment when he was more beautiful to me, human being to human being. Men are so different than us when they exhibit their grace, when they lean into the acceptance of defeat. Never more beautiful, never more strong, than when exposed. Man, didn't know I would still feel the same as the day I first saw this. It cost him so much to admit things to Elisabeth on the island and when he knew the Pearl was going to be taken from him again.
generous and true Miz WilloftheWisp--I'm beginning to imagine you as geothermal energy, hot and percolating along every single second of your life and driven to be so--love that artist in you, you can't not make art with your words, the generousity of your nature to share with all of us. Thank you so for showing us more--I'm still struggling, my nature, more a easy little spring bubbling up, not under pressure from creative fire, like you. Wow, how fine!
Oh, and in the piratistas yearbook along with all the alcolades and elected offices from our 'senior year', someone will have written in, "saucy wench" under your picture and they will be so right!!
__________________ Think, it's not illegal yet.
Siggy by Savvy
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Aw, thanks, Tex. I guess now I know you enjoy my comments as much as I enjoy yours. The forum occasionally goes through nasty periods where we declare war on the willabethers and the willabethers declare war on us and the poor norribethers are like the orphans left to be airlifted out. I know that won't happen with you because you're so positive on this thread and the willabeth thread. It's so nice you can see the good and bad in both and yet you have such a strong passion for both...but I think you're more a sparrabether, lol.
I am in 100% agreement with you. Jack is never more three-dimensional, never more human, than when he's forced to be. I'm sure it has a lot to do with his quest for immortality, but he doesn't want to be an ordinary human. He wants to be able to turn off his feelings and be a great pirate like Barbossa and be able to disregard human life if it means getting his Pearl back. But for a pirate, he's a nice guy. Is he nice for a person? Well, in my opinion, no. There's a difference between someone who is nice and someone who is good, but for a pirate, Jack is like the patron saint of goodness. And it's when he's confronted with that fact that we love him the most, wanting to just give him a hug and say it's okay to not wear your hat every once in a while. It's okay to appear sober. He's only really drunk once in the whole series, which is amazing if you think about it...although maybe the only other two that are ever drunk at all are Gibbs and Norrie....
And that's when I know it's my cue to leave...tangents.
KMC Community Forums
Nov 28th, 2007 03:23 AM
All my thanks to savvysparrowluv!
hot and percolating along every single second of your life and driven to be so--love that artist in you, you can't not make art with your words, the generousity of your nature to share with all of us. Thank you so for showing us more--I'm still struggling, my nature, more a easy little spring bubbling up, not under pressure from creative fire, like you. Wow, how fine! 
