Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Actually in 1982, when that Korvac issue was published, LT's Supreme Judgement was a Super Nova.
So, I don't know where your going.
Wrong,
I never said that, please, just ask me but don't add words to my post.
The Humans made a shield around the Earth which they sustained with their power, and there it stayed in stasis with in a collapsed Universe, awaiting the next ETERNITY to come by and recycle the collapse into a New Universe.
By posting this AFTER I showed you the M-BODY of Entropy exploding into a UNIVERSE:
If the M-BODY of Entropy (the Abstract) BECOMING a FULL BLOWN UNIVERSE is not the "entirety" of the Concept/Abstract.
Whatever.
Why?
Cause it doesn't adhere to your ONE issue of Quasar?
I would have let you known, so it's good that you acknowledged your stretch.
Your SPECULATING again.
Where is this stated about the WRITERS of Captain Marvel that you have deemed "the Real Reason"?
The ONLY Facts is that the M-body IS the WHOLE UNIVERSE!
Actually, technically I'm the only one showing proof that it was a Multi-verse, and technically you've shown absolutely NO proof to contradict it.
Except to say your idea just "sounds nicely" or a bio says it.
Bios that say Reed only remade the Universe during the Abraxas Arc, bios that say Phoenix was involved in Galactus's origin, bios that say the END 616 Universe was 4321 instead.
There we go, "it fits nicely" what I tell ya.
Off Panel explanations by Writers and Handbooks go against the ON PANEL Depictions.
Starlin calls the Marvel Reality, the Marvel Universe, and any other Writer's comments are inconsequential to me.
I've called you on numerous speculations, again, again, and again, so that's a funny accusation.
Many others after reading the appropriate scans have agreed, so I'm not alone in my "pre-conceived ideas"
And I already made a comprehensive suggestion of WHY the M-body of Multi was not shown getting absorbed.
It makes more than perfect sense that the second to TOAA has Omniversal jurisdiction, when characters that are insects to the Living Tribunal have power on an Omniversal scale.
It is correct.
The Living Tribunal is the Judge of ALL the Multi-verses.
I know you claimed that before, and it's still nothing more than speculation, until you can back it up with proof.
And apparently it will continue to make sense to you and you alone.
Your building a summation compiled by theories, speculations and down right defiance of what has been stated On Panel.
It's credibility is weak, because it's ALL stemming from ONE issue, Quasar #37 and disregarding ALL other issues that concern the M-BODY of Eternity or any other M-BODY.
And LT is NOT an M-BODY!!! ... please let us know WHERE you are you getting this information from besides an AMBIGUOUS phrase made by the Contemplator.
And try and remember, if your going to say What If's are irrelevant, DON'T use an arc that was stated to be NON-CANON by Marvel itself to debate.
Yea, my response:
So again, the event with the Beyonder and the Trial of Warlock is still playing over and over?
No matter the logic, this is PIS to the umph degree, or just plain stupid.
One thing is to go back in time,
but because History is just repeating itself, those are simultaneous events taking place between Comatose Eternity and the others?
nah ... that's a cop-out, due to PIS.
It's not your fault, it's the complete PIS of the story attempting to jam down our throats this concept of M-bodys, with a scene that took place 22 Years ago May 1984
and yet, you want to believe it's happening simultaneously with the events of Infinity War which took place in June 1992?
AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when the Cosmics came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,
AND Quasar DID FIND an M-BODY of INFINITY in the Dimension of Manifestations:
"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET" (please log in to view the image)
"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"
SO obviously, this M-BODY within the Dimension of Manifestation was NOT the INFINITY of the 616 UNIVERSE, but in FACT of ANOTHER UNIVERSE.
This tells us that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations (like the LT scan PROVED), and M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there simultaneously, explaining the whole multiple Deaths incident.
But the Beyonder/Eternity M-BODY is straight up nonsense still.
Uhmm, I don't think that though.
Singular Eternity is made up of Dimensions and Planes, NOT Realities and Universes.
So NO, Singular Eternity is NOT a Multi-verse.
Your entitled to an opinion like all others.
But I completely disagree that was a single Universe.
So I stand by my claim.
That's crap writing,
Whole Universe are ....well ....Whole Universes, (separate Eternitys)
The Dimension reference is senseless as well.
I disagree, and your bordering on trying to re-write the Marvel Cosmology that has been established On Panel.
Bad example bringing in Strange Tales #138, Where Eternity tells Strange only the Ancient One has seen him,
did you realize that there was NO MULTI-VERSE then?
So this is inconsequential.
Well, obviously your not going to like mine better.
Not in the least.
I've proven conclusively that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations, and that M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there.
So the Multi-Eternity and Warlock meeting still stands.
I disagree, completely.
You should of speculated, caused based on the issue, it was the Multi-verse that stood before Warlock.
Ok, now I don't really know how this fits into everything yet, because I just remembered it earlier when Leo was talking about the internal universes but....
When the Surfer and Reed and Sue traveled through a black hole in search of the missing Elders of the Universe, they ended up within the realm of Order and Chaos. Now there IS mention of it being another universe, but I'm not for sure if it's supposed to exist inside or outside of our "standard" universe. Check it out...
See, so the realm of Order and Chaos IS a universe(but I'm still not sure where it's supposed to be in relationship to the realm of Death and Eternity). Here's another one, where its called a "Reality"...
See no the funny thing about that scan, is that it ALSO implies that Order and Chaos are actually EQUAL to Death and Eternity. Now of course, in any instance when Order and Chaos were acting withing the "standard" universe, Eternity and Infinity would have greater power, but whenever they are within their own, they should be as powerful as Eternity and Death are within theirs. (And by the same token, theoretically Eternity and Death should have less power within the realm of Order and Chaos).
Here's my last one, it has the In-Betweener talking to Death about how HIS reality is different than hers...
Now, what I find completely puzzling, is the fact that the In-Betweener was actually IN CONTROL of Death(he made her kill the Elders, which she swore she wouldn't do before). So that actually indicates that either Order and Chaos are MORE powerful than Death and Eternity, or that they simply GAVE more power to the In-Betweener, than Death and Eternity gave to Galactus.
I know this wasn't really the right place to bring this up, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions(Mr. M and Leo specifically), as to how this relates to everything else. It may have been expanded on or contradicted elsewhere(I'm not overly familiar with Order and Chaos), but from what's been indicated here, I think that Order and Chaos need to be bumped up a bit on our cosmic totem pole.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
mm, you've gone through . . . a lot of trouble to say the same thing i've said about a half-dozen times: the m-body of eternity CAN encompass the whole universe if it is viewed from OUTSIDE the universe -- which is where it is most often encountered. of which your entropy issue is but one more example, as is gamora's entry and exit. seriously, i've said it a number of times, so all your scans simply continue to reiterate a point i stated long ago. but people love your scans, so keep 'em coming!
thing is: when have you seen the whole universe destroyed when the m-body of eternity has been WITHIN the universe? never. except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT body is destroyed? there is still a universe left behind. the only way you can explain it is to speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that no void was made and that he went on to absorb the MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series. while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing it the way you want to interpret it. if universe DID mean universe, your theory would utterly fall apart. i see no reason to say universe was NOT exactly what starlin meant. m-body absorbed, then the remainder and consciousness of eternity/infinity.
there is a second example of an eternity m-body falling while WITHIN the universe: when thanos defeats eternity in the IG the m-body remains behind in stasis but THANOS is the universe. how can that be if, as you've said over and over, EVERY M-BODY OF ETERNITY IS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE? if the whole universe is the eternity m-body, just what IS thanos?
my explanation of that event is simple -- thanos started battling the m-body (as we saw), then went beyond the physical plane to face the REAL spiritual eternity. the m-body was meaningless at this point as the REAL universe was now engaged and when thanos usurped the 'consciouness' of the universe, the m-body remained behind utterly useless. but also CLEARLY NOT the ENTIRE universe unless thanos was . . .?
my theory really DOES fit nicely imho (perhaps not in yours, or others, but, alas, i can live with that ) and i don't have to say atleza anchors the entire multiverse -- another postulation that have never been shown on panel. and you know what you say about things not on panel . . .
in support i showed that death was killed by strange (but you say instead he just . . . ko'd her . . . even though when she came back she was in a new m-body . . . malestrom killed anomaly's m-body and sent the m-body to oblivion. it didn't matter because the m-body is meaningless and we saw anomaly attack q later and even say it must have been the m-body in an issue ALL ABOUT m-bodies. but you pooh-poohed THAT as well and said quasar really doesn't know what he's talking about.
you don't believe quasar when he says that malestrom killed anomaly, but you cling to the fact that infinity ignored him and say that because of THAT you have 'conclusively proven there is only one d of m' responsible for supplying the entire OMNIVERSE with m-bodies?
you're terribly quick to ascribe the term multiverse to everything. only problem is: multiverse is almost never mentioned anywhere on panel. but you continue to demand on-panel evidence from me and anyone else. for you to ascribe it as freely as you do, then critcize me for speculating (while i showed just some of the leaps you made above) . . . doesn't sound too great. using only the info provided in the issue, it's a lot easier to say infinity was the current one and rather than ignoring him, was actually comatose like eternity and unable to answer BECAUSE she was bound with him. (speculation is NECESSARY in this case as ithe situation is never defined) but in MY speculations, there is no need to bring in other-universal infinities and entities or the omniverse -- things that are not only never mentioned but that are never even alluded to.
as to the lt scan. in your corner you have:
one single scan that contradicts all others of lt EVER.
in mine: i have what COULD be an error (which i actually dislike saying cuz i hate calling pis for reasons goober mentioned) so instead, i showed a scan that completely in every way supports exactly what i said was shown in the defenders mini series -- that any singular eternity can (because of its make-up) be seen to be a multiverse in and of itself. eternity himself acknowledges dormammu in the defenders series and references a past meeting AND eternity himself ALSO references a past meeting with dr strange and the ancient one. (and that was NOT strange tales . . .)
your reaction: crap writing. why? not because it rewrites at all marvel's cosmology, but rather because it does not fit in with YOUR opinion of what that cosmology should be. there's a big difference, my friend. different writers have the right to interpret things differently.
so, you have one scan that is contradicted in every other scan of lt, and i have 2 scans (plus what is in effect a whole mini-series) that reference singular eternity as a multiverse or collection of universes as well as lt's judgement failing in the ultraverse -- a seperate multiverse.
i am perfectly content to let people choose which interpretation they believe to be accurate.
lastly, as regards lt and the d of m. what is the very PURPOSE of the d of m? to CREATE M-BODIES. yet you see lt multiple times in that dimension and STILL don't think he uses m-bodies? to quoth the master-man: whatever.
i've really nothing more to add. people can read and come to whatever conclusions they like. it has -- as always -- been fun.
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Last edited by leonidas on Dec 4th, 2006 at 12:37 AM
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
order and chaos are concepts that exist within EVERY universe (ie eternity). how could there be order and chaos and their universe be OUTSIDE of eternity . . .?
so yes, i'd say that their universe IS within eternity. the negative zone is also said to be a universe and i don't see how someone could argue IT is outside eternity either . . .
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
excellent.
i forgot though: i neglected one answer to one query. you asked about what ifs. i said they duplicate universes in all ways save that they diverged from ours at certain instances. that doesn't mean ALL 'other' universes are copies of 616, of course. anyway, this idea is born out in many what ifs that recount the history of characters leading up to the moment of divergence, but here's just one quick example:
"Slight things turn out differently from the reality we know." these slight things are the divergences that then set these other universes apart from ours. up until the divergence, the universes are the same.
in the second: "one such reality diverges on a fateful day . . ."
oh, and one final special one . . . this from the evolutionary war what if you were using earlier . . .
you showed the entity splitting numerous times, but alas, the second panel on the page is pretty interesting: "the earth itself? it still exists, self contained and self existing, IN THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND"
the entity's departure left the universe "without meaning". so the m-body left and already fashioned a new big bang in a different dimension, but . . . THE UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEFT BEHIND!!! how is THAT possible?? and what 'meaning' was deprived?
THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE!! the spirit is what is important to the universe. your own story proves that the m-body is meaningless, that it CANNOT encompass the whole universe. the UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEF BEHIND! it DID implode, later, because the SENTIENCE was gone -- NOT BECAUSE THE M-BODY WAS GONE! the m-body can literally LEAVE THE UNIVERSE and STILL leave 'the universe' behind. thanos could easily have absorbed the m-body and what would have been left? the universe.
dude, showed a scans of panels all around that one, but chose not to post THAT panel. that is ALMOST like . . . cheating . . .
ps-i still stand by the idea that what ifs shouldn't be used. i showd it only to show that even in the book of YOUR choosing, my idea is born out. readers can come to their own conclusions.
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Last edited by leonidas on Dec 4th, 2006 at 02:33 AM
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
What does this prove though?
That ALTERNATE UNIVERSES are NOT the SAME as 616.
That's what I said.
I asked you to show me PROOF of a Universe that is an EXACT duplicate of 616.
And you present me with Info I already know about in What Ifs.
"divergence" or call it what you want,
the bottom line is there is NO EXACT duplicate of 616 where Thanos could have experienced the EXACT same events of 616.
So I win.
Uhh friend,
you just buried yourself in confusion,
the M-BODY LEFT creates a Universe, the NEXT PAGE, the UNIVERSE COLLAPSES.
You thought you had something by going into the issue and cropping a scan, but WHEN and WHERE in the issue, does it mention that because the "Spiritual Essence" left the Universe folded?
The very SAME SCAN you just posted, lol, clearly says,
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
the m-body "is reality/universe". it LEFT the universe. it left BEHIND a universe. said universe was deprived of meaning. you think the meaning was the m-body that -- even after it left LEFT, left a universe behind . . .??
okay . . .
earlier i asked you a couple times: if eternity leaves the universe (ie when he visited the d of m or lt, or . . .) DOES THE UNIVERSE GO WITH HIM?
you repeatedly said "yes."
that scan that you left out and cropped all around clearly SHOWS and SAYS 'in the UNIVERSE the entity left behind.'
i don't know how much more clear you need things to be shown that the universe does NOT travel with the m-body and is in fact MORE than the m-body is. the vacated universe SURVIVED the departure of the m-body and imploded well after it left. why? because the SENTIENCE left -- the 'living part' of the universe, ie -- the universe's consciousness.
meh, i'm through with the subject, but, though you may not see it, i've little doubt others will.