Jean did hold a Universe in her hands and did Heal it.
The bio doesn't say she "grew it a new future" though...
Jean made Scott Change his mind and the Future (Here Comes Tomorrow) never took place, that's how Jean Healed the Universe according to the Official Bio,
and Grant Morrison right here : (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers, last page New X-Men #155)
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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 11th, 2007 at 11:35 PM
The bio doesnt need to say the words "grew a new future" for that to have been the case on panel. Wording something different is irrelevant when the words used to describe the event have the same meaning.
As shown on panel Jean amputated the Here Comes Tomorrow future from the universe thereby leaving reality without a future. Jean rectified this by altering events (i.e Scotts reaction to Emma) thereby resulting in a new future. One to replace the amputated HCT future. By doing so Jean "grew" reality a new future as it were. You have disproved not a thing.
The HCT was the future of 616. It wasnt a separate reality until Jean amputated it. If you look at the above scan it references the events of 616 and then refers to the events which lead to this future.
Thank you for providing me with evidence to prove my point. If you read the bio you'll see that by changing events within the reality in her hand, she made sure that Cyclops of 616 responded to Emma differently:
If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand?
It says that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?
The Here Comes Tomorrow arc was the apocalyptic future of 616. Jean amputated that future from 616. She materialized 616 in her hand and then she healed the universe she had wounded via the amputation, by altering the events of 616 (as actually stated) meaning that Cyclops of 616 never abandoned Emma and the School but instead stuck with her thereby making sure the Here Comes Tomorrow future never came about.
The Here Comes Tomorrow future became separate from 616 and thereby gained a new continuum designation when it was amputated and therefore separate from 616.
Of course, but the difference is that the HCT future was 616s future until it was amputated forcefully by Jean. Thats when it became separate and gained its own designation. The alternate universes depicted in What Ifs are natural breaks from the main continuity, theyre not enforced by some outside cosmic force.
It never happened as far as 616 is concerned but in terms of the Marvel multiverse it happened and was referenced by 616 Jean within 616.
The bio mentions a streamlined version of the events, it cant and doesnt include every detail, it just gives a summary. As long as something occurs and is mentioned on panel and the bio doesnt contradict it then ommission from the bio doesnt equate to it not having happened.
Once again: If the reality in her hand wasnt 616 then how was she altering 616 events by altering events within that reality in her hand?
It says in your bio that by changing 616 Cyclops' reaction she ensured the HCT future never came about. How would she do that if the HCT future wasnt the previous future of the 616 reality?
They were enforced by Grant Morrison who decided to place the Here Comes Tomorrow Arc 150 Years in the Future.
This doesn't explain away why in yet another Official 2006 Bio it's called
Earth-15104
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104 (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
It even says Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ... NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.
(obviously she did it in #154, Here Comes Tomorrow began on page 30 - in New-Xmen #150)
This is ONE of many possible Futures that could have Diverged from the 616 Reality, but thanks to Phoenix it will definitely never happen.
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
Because the Reality in her hands was already Reality 15104,
it became that Reality the moment Scott set in motion the chain of events that led to Here Comes Tomorrow.
Mr M. Theres one flaw to your logic. If the universe in her hand was not 616 then why in making changes to the past of this alleged alternate universe in her hand would she directly make changes to 616?
The Phoenix of Here Comes Tomorrow is the same Jean of 616. During the HCT story arc the past of that reality shes in is referred to as her past, she acknowledges it as her past.Why would this be the case if the universe she was in was not 616?
The HCT future is stated to have been set 150 years in the future of 616. You yourself admit that the HCT future is derived from 616 so surely by cutting off that future as it is stated happened, Jean is going to be left with the 616 reality as we know it?
The handbook stating that the future 15104 started in issue 150 of New X-men doesnt disprove my point at all. Thats true, thats when we as readers first saw this alternate future. It is an alternate future because it is no longer connected to 616 the core reality, it is no longer the future of the 616 timeline. Just like how the AOA reality was what 616 turned into after Legions tampering with the past, but by going back in time to when said reality was still 616 as we knew it and altering events Bishop made that AOA reality diverge into a separate continuity and set 616 back on track again. AOA wasnt a separate reality until the events which brought it about were altered and thats when it gained its different continuum designation. Before then it was what 616 had become which is precisely why the M'kraan crystal went crazy because events werent the same and Jean wasnt around to heal the crystal as she did as events were meant to occur in the core reality.
Back to HCT
616 went apocalyptic in the 150 years after Jeans death.
Jean eventually amputated this 150 years of future, leaving behind the 616 as we know it in the present.
This action wounded the universe. Jean was advised that in order to heal this wound she would have to make a better future grow.
Jean materialized the universe within the crystal and she was later told that if she wanted to grow a new future to replace the one she had cut away (HCT future) she would have to symbolically water it with her hearts blood. I.e urge Cyclops to move on without her, thus altering the events which lead 616 into the HCT future thus making sure it never took place.
HCT was just the future of 616 that Jean cut off. It was a part of 616 up until that point. Jean cut it off, it then got its own continuum designation.
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Feb 13th, 2007 at 07:05 PM
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
It's simple friend,
Here Comes Tomorrow is a Divergent Timeline, that's it.
A possible Future for the 616 Reality, but it was Never a Certain Future.
That Universe took form because of Scotts decision 150 Years Ago, Grant Morrison's way of getting away with the story.
No wonder there wasn't a single extra cameo from a character Other than X-Men related, It's a Global epidemic and No one else know about it?
This story (Here Comes Tomorrow) was enclosed in this Alternate Reality 15104 the second this story began 150 Years in the Future.
(I mean What? ... Only the X-Men exist in the Future of 616?)
See, that's silly.
So, by the time Jean Amputates the Future Deep in the Arc in issue #154,
the Story has been taking place in Reality 15104 since issue #150.
the Future of,
Earth-15104
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104 (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
"In ONE Future" (there are many Possible Futures)
Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104 ... NOT of Reality 616 which then became 15104.
Ok that's all, cool debate.
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Last edited by Mr Master on Feb 13th, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Well..this is what I took from a Q&A bio/description from marvel:
"Was the Phoenix Force born in a previous universe?
"Yes and no, the Phoenix Force is one of the few cosmic entities born from a previous universe. When it was born exactly is unknown, but it is known that it dies with the previous universe and is reborn in the next universe as a new creature with the memories of its predecessor."
Reality 15104 was illustrated to be derived from 616. It came about from Cyclops reaction in 616 and was what 616 became 150 years after Cyclops decision.
It wasnt a divergent timeline otherwise 616 would have existed at the same time as this reality and would have run alongside. That wasnt the case. 616 as we know it didnt exist, it had become this future.
If it was a divergent timeline that became its own reality altering the events of 616 would have no affect on this alleged other reality. By altering the past of 616 do you change the history of What Ifs?
The reality Jean had in her hand was 616. As stated Jean amputated the HCT future, therefore she was left with 616 as we know it. By amputating the HCT future it was no longer THE future but A future that thanks to Jeans actions would no longer come to pass. That was the point it gained its own continuum designation.
Theres just too much evidence against your opinion. All you have is a handbook giving a different reality reference (15104) however that is insufficient as it is right to have a different reference as it is no longer a part of 616 and we saw that occur on panel. Hnadbooks complement on panel accounts, they are not substitutes for them. Your handbook reference is explained away on panel.
It has been good debating with you, but its got to the point where youre not debating anymore, youre merely ignoring my questions and just reposting your argument.
I will post my questions again:
If you do NOT answer my questions then i will not take kindly to you posting in this thread again and i will take the necessary actions.
If you do however answer my questions (with reference to conclusive on panel evidence) then thank you very much and i will gladly respond to you.
... I don't know... I've looked at the evidence, but it seems obvious to me that the universe WAS 616 but was no longer connected, since it was amputated. Thus, it became 15104 because it was disconnected from the prime reality (616).
Gender: Male Location: somewhere within time & space
The Future of 616,
where only the X-Men exist.
If it was 616 until it was disconnected, and then it became 15104,
what happened to the original 616?
It was magically Re-Created?
Jean Amputated the Future in issue #154.
Here Comes Tomorrow began in issue #150.
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Here Comes Tomorrow bio) (please log in to view the image)
Here Comes Tomorrow, took place on Earth-15104 and began in issue #150
"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future of Reality - 15104 (please log in to view the image)
(excerpt from the OHOTMU 2006 - Mkraan Crystal bio)
It clearly says "Phoenix amputated the Alternate Future OF Reality 15104" ...
Your argument comes from not understanding the concepts. It was just a future, 150 years of it to be precise, it was not an entire timeline, just a snippet of one derived from 616. It was 616's future an apocalyptic one which resulted from the Cyclops and Emma incident in 616. When Jean amputated that future, that 150 years of timeline, what was left, what she materialized in the white hot room, was 616.
The future she amputated, no longer having anything to do with 616
1) because Jean physically amputated it
2) because Jean altered the 616 event which spawned it thereby making that future non-existent
then gained its own continuum designation, reality 15104
Here Comes Tomorrow did debut in issue 150. Whats your point? What exactly do you think that proves? Thats correct. The debut of reality 15104 was in issue 150, however as shown on panel, it wasnt amputated from reality until 154 and it wasnt replaced with another future (by Jeans past alteration) until said issue as well. Up until that point it derived from 616 and the handbook entry illustrates that point by talking of how 15104 was replaced by Jean altering the past of 616.
If 15104 wasnt just the future of 616, it was a divergent reality, not only would altering the past of 616 NOT have an affect on it, but it would have existed alongside the 616 reality. It didnt. It existed instead of it. Thats the very reason Jean cut it off and then changed 616s events to ensure that future didnt come about.
Its "ONE future" because Jean amputated it making it just ONE future instead of THE future of 616 that it previously was.
You've confused yourself. Once again HCT was a segment of the timeline. It was just 150 years of future stemming from that Cyclops/Emma event of 616. It was the future of 616 until Jean amputated it from 616 and before she changed events making it so it never existed. Thats when it became reality 15104. The reference is just to distinguish it.
Its all explained away and illustrated on panel and even in that bio which perfectly depicts it to have been a previous future of 616. Look at how your queries are easily answered and then look at how you cant explain away mine with your interpretation. Does that not tell you something?
Youre ignoring my questions and continually posting the same argument which ive handled. Thats no better than spamming.
Unless you are going to respond to my previous questions do NOT post in my thread. This is the last warning.
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Feb 11th, 2007 11:33 PM
