To be quite honest I doubt it. The law would not just involve punishing people there would be other aspects as well. Marriage, inheritance, trading etc. People would meet and discus things they had their own courts and democratic system, so no it wasn't simple. The only thing is that it would probably be less complicated because their were fewer people.
Thats not what im saying. Thor was called upon in battle but he has other aspects that were just as important as fighting. As I mentioned already..he was the patron god of law, marriage, fertility....poetry.
Well ok he is known more for killing giants but this does not mean he does not have other aspects that were just as important. You have to bear in mind some of the stories are lost. As I mentioned before the norse used to call him the Deep Thinker, obvoulsy there were probably lots of stories of him using his brain but mainly the ones that survived are of him using brute force.
Yes I am countering what you said, I am saying that Thor is highly intelligent.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
I know it is that is why I know this thread probably means alot to you and kept myself from saying other things like your taking thsi a little to far to prove a point.
Now as for the Law yes it was a simple lay back then. THe strongest made the laws and carried them out. Stuff like Marriage and other things were barely what they are today. Basically if you got together you got together.
He was other things besides a war God but none of that actually points to him being truely super intelligent.
You chose to bring up a few chpice moments that actually take him out of his normal character where he did some things that are kind of clever but nothing that is that remarkable. He tricked a Dwarf once found Loki once. He has been tricked more times than that. He has been bested in a battle of words more times then that. And at the end of the Day he is and always has been a fighter and a symbol of raw power to the Norse Mythology.
And now your trying to tell me he may have been smarter in stories that may have been lost over time. You have no proof of that since all we have is what we got and the fact is he is tricked more times then not. He shown to be of average intelligence for a God, and he is first and for most a warrior of honor which explains him being a patron of law more then anything that has to do with his brain power.
So Thor not stupid, pretty clever in battle some times, but by no means a true intellectual power.
You are making assumptions. Marriage was not that simple because there was divorce and a women could keep her property after getting married. They had their own democratic system where they would discuss. They traded, they built houses all these things need laws.
He...was.....called.....The.....Deep.....Thinker.
Didnt I explain to you how intelligent dwarves are?
So he tricked a highly intellignet dwarf and found a highly intellignet god = two incidences of him being highly smart.
Give me examples. I can give you two examples of Odin being tricked, I can give you three examples of Loki being tricked.
Give me examples.
Your just wasting my time.
Well considering the fact that lots of information about Norse mythology has been lost and Thor is called....the.....deep...thinker....that is a logical conclusion.
Stop wasting my time and give me examples. I haven't even given you all the examples of him using his head.
Complete waste of time.
Complete waste of time.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
You guys have to also remember that most actual pagan deities had hundreds of stories about them, and generally the "canon" of their myth is disputed. What may have been true of Thor in some stories (intelligence, for example, to make this pertinent to the discussion) may be totally false in another story.
The largely oral tradition of the myths, added to the sheer volume, means that many gods have even more incarnations, variances in power levels, and ambiguity than even their comic-book counterparts.
So, not to be disrespectful, but I think your guys argument here will turn out rather fruitless.
...on a side note, this technically isn't comics, but I'm intrigued so I'll allow it. It can't become a trend, but 1 is ok.
Yes that is true, but if you compile all the information on Thor one of his aspects is that he was highly intelligent. Were not talking about the Germanic period this is The Viking era, so in general his descriptions would have been consistent.
What I said above.
Newjak is wasting my time and I dont know why im bothering.
P.S. Newjak you missed the example of Thor tricking the giant..you forgot that as well.
Well still related but I see what you mean.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jan 24th, 2007 at 09:10 PM
Ok let me keep this as simple as possible to let you know what is going on here.
Thor was average in intelligence always has been. He has had moments yes but nothing to begin to proclaim the level of intelligence you want.
Your claiming titles as proof. And yes back then Law was of the strongest arm had the right of the law. They had some democtratic abilties and some other stuff but in the end law was of the strength of someone.
That is why confronting men often ended arguements over battles which is befitting Thor a known War God.
You keep talking about this title of Deep Thinker like it is be all end all of the discussion.
Anyways back to topic. He tricked Dwarf by asking him many questions all of which the Dwarf knew the answer to. Clever maybe but to say that makes him a super gneious no.
For him finding Loki I will admit my memory on his catpure pf Loki is hazy but I my memory does try to sya that Loki turned into a snake and hide in either a small cavern or a river for some time. It was only through constant looking they were able to find Loki. Nothing really clever going on since Loki has tricked Thor more times then anyone can remember.
As for the Giant scenario I don't even bother to actually count that as for the fact that your forgetting to mention that it wasn't even Thor that came up with the idea to begin with
Once again you have no proof of anything to say his intellgence wasn't completely similir. Was he dumb no but often you are forgetting to mention that Thor has been tricked a few more timez by the like sof Loki Giants, and Odin himself and in fact in his meeting with Odin at the River Crossing the stories make huge mention that it was an ulitmate symbol of Odin's knowledge against Thor's overall power it sepcificly mentions that. Meaning that Thor's knowledge simply wasn't that good.
Also let's not forget that Thor also get alot of help for his plans from outside sources. Take into account his battle where an assocaite of his actually tells the gaint to place his shield beneath his feet so that Thor get s free hit.
Also take into account that after that fight Thor manages to get himself cuahgt undernaeth the Giants leg not to smart there was it. In fact his son has to come and lift the leg off his father.
Face it for everything Thor was he wasn't the wisest they make much mention of this as his father and even Loki show to be better thinkers then the "Deep Thinker"
It is often Thor's brute strength that lead him into victory not his intellgence. He gets alot of help from fellow people when it comes to planning as shown before.
And Thor when he was in the realm of giants doing impossible tasks never was able to outthink them.
So once again Thor not a super thinker intellectual
Enlighten me on what the fact is that all you've said is Deep Thinker patron of law must equal intellgence.
You give a few examples of Thor not beinging overtly clever just somewhat. And you've failed to mention the fact that Odin and Loki have must better Intellectual feats compared to Thor.
Although I will ask the exact nature of Loki's capture as like I said my mind is hazy on the subject.
No this was not always the case there are many examples in the sagas of people meeting together at courts called Athlings in order to discuss the law. So you are just making assumptions.
Rubbish. I explained above.
Yes because if somebody says you are a deep thinker this means you are dumb.
Wasting my time. The point is that he tricked him and turned him into stone, you can ignore that point. I have already explained to you how intelligent the dwarves are you ignored that as well.
Use a bit of common sense. Loki is highly intelligent therefore he would have used intelligence to hide. Loki changed himself into a fish and Thor adapted to Lokis shape shifting powers by using a net. Again understand that myths are symbolic. Thor did not use brute force. It is also symbolic that Thor caught him Thor is the god of justice its his job to deal with problems like this either by force or by brains. So it was not just from looking at was adapting Loki.
Examples.
Im not talking about that one. Im talking about the incident where Thor didnt use Lokis help its narrated in the Lay of Glyfanning. Just because Thor takes Lokis advice sometimes doesnt mean that he needs to rely on Lokis intelligence.
You cant just take an example of Thor taking Lokis advice then ignore all the other cases where didnt take advice. Its taking things out of context.
When did Loki trick Thor? Ive asked you three times now.
No it doesnt because I explained to you before in the Gautrek saga Thor matched Odin in wits....please dont tell me im gonna have to explain myself again.
Furthermore Odin has been tricked by Frigga on many occassions, does that make Odin less intelligent. Just because somebody gets tricked does not make them stupid you are taking things out of context.
Loki was outsmarted by Thor when he tried to escape and I dont even think that happened once but I would not check on that.
Loki was fooled by Utgard Loki.
loki was not able to escape the punishment of the dwarves and got his lips sewn togther.
If the above was Thor you would be claiming how this makes him less intelligent. Of course you will ignore these points.
Taking things out of context again. Sometimes Thor gets help. To focus on the times that he needs help and to ignore the times when he doesnt is taking things out of context.
Thor didnt need help:
To trick the dwarf
To trick the giant in the Lay of Glyfanning
To match wits with Odin
Thor found Loki on his own.
Man thats really rude and insensitive.
I have alreadty explained. There is a limited amount of sources we have on Norse lore, the fact he is called this implies that there were more stories of him using his brains. You are going to ignore this point and twist things around.
.......ive given you four examples of him using his brains...how many have you given me of him using brute force..less than four. Dont know what your talking about.
You gave me two examples of him getting help. I give you four of him not using help and you have come to the conclusion he gets alot of help. There are lots of examples of the gods helping each other and travelling together that does not prove anything.
This proves you have not been listening to what ive been telling you. Lets see what I said about this point in my first post....try and pay attention.
I even wrote some of it in bold, just so you would not miss the point.
once again you dont know what you're talking about.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jan 24th, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Oh yeah this is what they have to say about The Lay of Harbard:
Odin and Thórr confront each other in a flyting (war of insults) and a mannjafnaðr
(a matching of men against one another with respect to accomplishments and prowess). Óðinn (Harbarð) seems to stand for the nobility, and Thórr for the yeomanry in this contest of eloquenceand wits. The author favours Óðinn, obviously, as Thórr is made to look a bit slow and foolish matching wits with the suave, locquacious and bitterly ironic God of Wisdom. The poem probably is an expression of the conflicts between the nobility and the yeomanry in Norway at this time, as similar conflicts did not exist in Iceland. The Poet, certainly, was retained by a nobleman.
Thats right he trapped him in a net when Loki was hiding in a river after running from the Gods.
Yeah sounds like Thor really outsmarted old Loki there catching him in a net after Loki had to run for his life because all the God's were after him. There was no riddle or poem that Thor had to overcome placed by Loki he caught a fleeing person.
You still haven't convinced me that Thor was really smart. You proved to me what I already know that Thor isn't anywhere near as close to Odin or Loki in the brains department. You talk of Thor tricking a dwarf once and he didn't even trick Loki. Heck he never even outwitted Odin like your claiming
So in reality he only really ever tricked the Dwarf once. Compare that to the things Loki and Odin have done with their minds and since you obviously have some intellgence on Norse tellings you would know that they by large and in far have done much better things. Loki tricked ALL of the God's into killing Balder. Odin has tricked people that were said to be the wisest things in creation compared to Thor who once tricked one dwarf who was trying to marry his daughter so obviously was willing to do much to get that approval.
You want to talk to me about Thor using his brains more than his brawns. Would like to go over every fight Thor has had with the giants or ever contest Thor has had over the years where he used nothing but strength. They far out weigh the one real scenario you've shown.
Oh and about laws they would discuss things like what were laws and not but when settling disputes often times the counsel decided fighting was the best area
Like I've said from the begining Thor not dumb but not super intelligent you've shown or posted nothing to prove otherwise
__________________ sig by Rao Kal El
Last edited by Newjak on Jan 24th, 2007 at 11:50 PM
Your the one trying to tell me that Thor is some kind of Super Genius. In now way have I ever said that Thor is dumb or that Thor can't be clever but he is in no wya nor has he shown that is really is in the league of Odin or Loki.
Listen, I understand that you've chosen this as your religion, and have taken a deep interest in the stories, mythos, etc. but I think you need to dig around the poetic edda or something for awhile and get your facts straight.
I take any 'offensive remarks' the same as you, but they're just the same as some guy cracking Jesus jokes to a Christian. You just have to roll with it. This something most people aren't going to care to sit down and figure out, because no matter what, it's not going to have the same level of importance to them.
I was raised a heathen, it's not something I researched and decided would be meaningful for me to investigate. I was brought up on these stories. While other kids were getting told about David and Goliath, my grandparents were telling me how the walls of Asgard were built. My parents had a heathen marriage, we celebrate Winter Finding, Yule, Feast of Ostara, etc. Hell, just a few weeks ago now I was sitting with my family making oaths on our hammers in front of our sunwheel.
It's not just something my parents decided to pick up in the 60's either, my grandparents, their parents, and their parents for as long as our family tree goes on have been heathen.
Please don't start to exaggerate Thor here (not saying you really have) and compare him with Marvel Thor and start to get feisty when people want to call you on it because he's one of your gods.
I'll post my opinion on the Marvel Thor tomorrow, I'm extremely tired, as it's 3:22 in the morning...
Go and argue with the maker of this site. Here name is Thorskeggga and she has dedicated her life to researching Thor and she can tell you that Thor used to be the head of the gods.
Dont tell me what to do.
With all due respect I dont want to know about your family history, please contribute something to the discussion or go away.
With all due respect I dont want to know about your family history, please contribute something to the discussion or go away.
Im very dissapointed with you. I have not exaggerated anything I think you have a chip on your shoulder.
So Can Thor Be Considered As A Patron Of Spiritual Enlightenment?
1. Freya is said to have taught the gods of the Aesir the magical arts when she arrived in Asgard. This would include Thor.
2. There are references in both the sagas and the surviving runic monuments that Thor was asked to perform magic by his worshippers.
3. The sagas claim that Thor can influence dreams, strong evidence of shamanic ability.
4. Thor can appear instantly where he is needed, such as in the tale of Building of Asgard's wall. Either his goats can run very fast or he can magically move from one place to another.
5. There has been much academic debate on possible hidden meanings in the Tale of Geirrod, in which Thor trades his hammer for a witchwoman's staff and is forced to cross a river of giantess's urine. Suggestions vary from a journey of shamanic initiation to a creation myth. It is also interesting to note that the staff was the mark of office of the female magic working in the north.
6. Several myths refer to Thor calling on a reserve of magical power to increase his strength (The Lay of Hymir, The Tale of Geirrod). This allows him to increase in size until he stands 'as high as heaven'. If this isn't magical power I don't know what is.
7. Thor fools Hymir by arriving in the form of a young boy, this is an example of shapeshifting, a talent of the god often overlooked.
8. When compared to the classical pantheon, Thor is compared to Jove, thus Jovis Dais is our Thursday. Thor shares many of Jove's attributes including an interest in law and order and his role as benevolent protector. Jove does not suffer from accusations of stupidity and occupies a position of unquestioned supremacy among the Roman gods.
9. Thor is frequently invoked (more so apparently than any other Norse deity) for the consecration and hallowing of religious artefacts and ceremonies. Thus Thor must be considered to be in tune with spirituality.
10. Thor's hammer has no spiritual characteristics and is clearly not the source of Thor's consecrating power. (Its attributes are listed in the Edda, it cannot be broken, cannot miss its mark, can change in size and always returns to Thor's hand when thrown. Although magical these qualities do not explain the symbol was used to hallow.) This strongly suggests that the hammer is used in this context because it is Thor's personal symbol.
11. It is not Thor's hammer that gives him control over the weather and thunder. This power appears to be part of his very being. Again this is a magical ability.
12. Thor is shown on many of the surviving hammer amulets in the form of a bird, probably an eagle. As this symbolism is not explained in the myths and sagas it appears to be a shamanic form of the god which has not been recorded. This would tie in with thunder bird beliefs from across the globe.
13. In the Eddic tale of Balder's funeral celebrations it is Thor who among all the gods acts as a priest and blesses the pyre.
14. Thor has the power to raise the dead (Myth of Utgardaloki)
15. Thor decrees the fate of Starkard in King Gautrek's Saga. This shows he has the ability to manipulate future events.
16. Thor is the companion of Loki, probably the most daring user of magical power among all the gods and goddesses, some of Loki's knowledge must have been passed on.
17. Thor is depicted in later artwork as having a halo of fire and or stars, and is well known for having a fiery gaze. Of all the gods and goddesses described in the myths he is the least 'human' in appearance. This would suggest that it was recognised that Thor is closer to the elemental forces he represents and controls than the other deities, and therefore very much part of the spiritual life force. Before anyone claims that Thor only represents the element of fire, remember he is very close to all four elements.
18. Thor is more associated with star constellations than any other Norse deity. He is also credited with placing the stars Aurvandil (story of Hrungnir) and Thiassi's eyes (version given in the Lay of Harbard) in the heavens. These are aspects of creation.
19. According to Berlams Saga, Thor is the father of nine of the Norns.
20. One of Thor's quests in the myths is the search for a cauldron, cauldrons often represent spiritual knowledge such as the cauldrons of mead won by Odin.
21. Thor's bizarre tactics in Egil and Asmund's Saga (the story of Eaglebeak) suggests a knowledge of the future. As Thor is the brother of the goddess Frigg (who knows the future but doesn't speak of it) and wife of Sif, who Snorri names as a seeress and father of nine Norns this is far from improbable.
22. Again in Eaglebeak Thor blesses the farm so it has an improbable yeild, another aspect of magical ability.
23. Some of the most complex Norse poetry was written in Thor's honour, the obvious examples being the poetic versions of the tales of Geirrod and Hrungnir preseved in Snorri's Edda. Such elaborate work would not have been dedicated to Thor if he was not considered a connoisseur of the poetic arts. His interest in poetic kennings revealed in his intellectual contest with Alvis also suggests this is the case.
24. The heathen Icelandic legal oath named an 'almighty god' alongside Frey and Njord, this is most certainly Thor the patron of the Althing. 'Almighty' suggests that Thor was considered to be well qualified in all aspects of godhood, and not just good at wacking things.
25. If Thor is not able to provide for his followers spiritual needs, why was he so popular in the past and why is he so popular now?
I will let the evidence speak for itself. If Mike wants an end to the bickering about the term Odinism, it will cease when he and others of his ilk stop trying to apply it to folk who do not include the god in their worship and have little interest the battlegod at all. It is a nonsensical term equivalent to calling all monotheists (i.e. Jews and Muslims) Christians, and no one would be surprised if some of them got very miffed. It may be that Odin is better known to the general public than many other deities, but that is no excuse to insult heathens by using an inappropriate blanket term.
As a follower of Thor I would say that Thor is almost certainly now better known and understood by the general public than Odin. Thanks to the complimentary (if laughable) portrayals of the god as a prominent superhero by Marvel Comics Inc and as an intergalactic peacekeeper by the producers of the Stargate television series. So I am first a friend of Thor, second a heathen but never, never, never an Odinist.
You know what im really disappointed with you ever since I created this thread you have been against me. You didnt even know why I created the thread in the first place while everybody else did.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jan 25th, 2007 at 11:52 AM
When I posted this in the religon forum this is what you said. Now lets think about this for a second. Every man and his dog knows what im trying to get across. How is that you who were born heathen doesnt know what im trying to get across. Maybe you dont want to. Its just an opportunity for you to shoot your mouth off and tell me what to do because you have some complex.
The intersting thing as well is that im the only one in the religon forum who has spoken about heathenism. Ive never seen you there once but now all of a sudden you want to tell me what to do.
Thats interesting. So in other words because you were raised heathen that means your better than me. What does that say about you? Please dont tell me you're a folkist heathen.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Actually im a bit hazy on the details but I think actually in one version Thor gets help, and there is another one were he doesn't im not sure.
I probably never will you dont want to be convinced.
Yes that is an impressive feat you also forgot to mention that Thor tricked a giant on his own without help. Giants are highly intelligent as well. Both Odin and Loki have giant blood in them. Some giants have vast magical powers and some are highly intelligent such as Mimir. You might recall that Odin sacrificed his eye to drink from his well.
I might be wrong about that, but I have asked you at least four times to give me examples of Loki tricking Thor. Stop wasting my time.
Again your not paying attention. I said that Thor matched his wits against Odin, I never said he outwitted him. Just being able to do that means you have to be smart. Some very wise gianst have matched their wits against Odin and have lost. It could also be percieved that he won because Thor achieved his objective in making Starkad's life difficult and Thor had the last word not Odin.
So in reality your not paying attention.
No all gods have impressive feats. None more impressive than the others everyone of them is special. For example Heimdall has to warn the gods about Raganarok, just that act in itself is important because if he does not do this the gods may not survive.
If I wanted to be petty I could add that Thor is the father of the Norns according to berlams Saga... and no its not just a matter of him being the father of the Norns, its symbolic and is an indication of what sort of being he is. I think I even saw a source that said he gave birth to them but I cant find it. In some myths the Norns are more powerful than the gods, so do the math.
No he didnt he tricked one god and that god was blind.
Yeah and Thor has matched wits with Odin, so what does that say about Thor? Like I said it could be considered that Thor won beacuse he had the last word, and he achieved his objective....making Starkad's life difficult. Odin has tricked Thor once, being tricked once by somebody does not mean they are more intelligent.
Let me break this down to you again. The dwarves created the treasures of the gods including Mjolinor.....no Mjolinor = dead gods. If I wanted to be petty I could conclude that the dwarves are more intelligent than the gods, Odin included.
Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.
Well I have shown three examples of him using his wits. I have listed 25 points listed by a scholar of Thor which shows he was not known for just wacking things. Of course you will focus on the points were he has learnt things from Freyja and Loki and ignore everything else.
You obvoulsy have not read any viking sagas have you but you sound as if you are so certain. There are plenty examples in the Norse sagas were they did not settle disputes by fighting you would know that if you read any.
The lawspeaker presided the Things, worked as a judge and formulated the laws that had been decided by the people. The lawspeaker was obliged to memorize the law and to recite it at the Thing. He was also responsible for the administration at the thing and for the execution of the decisions, and it was his duty to safeguard the rights and liberties of the people and to speak in their behalf to the king or his representative.
Does that sound like somebody who doesnt have to use his brains alot? Not only does he have to memorise vast amounts of information he has to apply the law correctly, and as you can imagine there were lots of different situations, marriage, inheritance, trading, land, housing etc. Furthermore he was also in charge of administration and that would involve alot of stuff.
You're an argumentative waste of time but im stubborn.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
I'm sorry but before I was being nice because well it is your chosen religion to follow Thor but now you want to call me being Stubborn
Honestly your grasping for straws and trying to make loose connections between things. He kept one dwarf answering questions for one night you know how many variables that could have taken place bewtween then and morning. Honestly the dwarf could have lost track of time could have simply been willing to risk it. Saying that Thor completely outsmarted the dwarf is well you know stupid.
As for him matching wits with Odin I've already went ove rthis all he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin said. He only got the last word in because despite everything Thor did Odin still got what he wanted. The hero was remembered throughout history eventually ending up with the Gods in Valhalla so who really outsmarted who?
Next as for your he outsmarted a giant with help on planning well let's look at this shall we. The fact is yes some gaints are really smart unforuntely Thor never matched wits with those ones. NO he being helped tricked a stupid giant which believe it or not many giants were stupid and shown to be stupid. So taking a few of the smart ones which Thor never went against to say all giants are smart therefore Thor must have tricked a smart one is absurd.
Also Loki did in fact trick and dupe mutliple gods inlcuding the goddess that made all fo anture take the oath not to hurt Balder. Along with the one blind God
Finally as for your 25 points all of them basically try ro make loose connections like Thor traveled with Loki therefore must have gotten some of his knowledge. No where in the Mytos does it ever say Thor learned anything from Loki.
Then the rest talk about roles and him using his powers to do things. Maybe he didn't whack anything but he defently used his raw power to overcome and do things like he normally he does. Nothing at all about how smart he is
In the end all you've done is use a bunch of heresay a few meaningless feats most of which also accompany other baggage. It just isn't good evidence to suggest he was in the brains department of Odin or Loki.
Basically you've given me a big streaming pile of crap to actually show Thor is super intelligent.
OK just so we are clear here is what you did.
Try to take an arguement between Odin and Thor and try to turn it into an epic battle fo wits.
You tried to show(with help) how Thor overcame one stupid giant.
You tried to showcase one event with Loki where Thor caught Loki when Loki was running for his life from ALL the gods.
Finally he once tricked a Dwarf into talking all night. A dwarf that was A) trying to get Thor's daughter for marriage and B) probably didn't even care about his own life if he was trying to talk to Thor.
So unless you can actually show me where Thor puts together some elaborate plan I'm saying it now you've busted
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Jan 24th, 2007 08:20 PM
