Now that's a real answer for the question, not other people's responses, which didn't even touch upon anything deeper than why the only black guy in the saga (Mace) isn't allowed a green or blue lightsaber. Thank you, it was a good read and well worth rousing a response too
Not to take away from your identification but...
While I agree they aren't "upper-class bourgeois" they aren't as separate as you would like to believe. To separate the Jedi and the Blones would be like separating the Stormtroopers from the Empire. Beside the Senators or the leaders of the rebellion, the average rebel was almost as expendable as a Clone.
They are not abused or disrespected but rather treated like the mass product they are. Yes, they are "human", but they are products nonetheless. The droid armies were treated the same way. The Clones were grown for war as frontline foot-soldiers.
They show the PT for the pointless powerstuggle it is. The OT was far different. An oppressed society fighting for their freedom. A fascist dictatorship that thought its way was for the better of the society and sought to force this way of life on all, even those opposed to it.
[QUOTE=8385708]Originally posted by Alliance I see myself in them, I sympathise with their position. That is identification. In return, they give me a new lens and thats a process worth going through. While they played a great role in the saga, your interpretation has flaws that I felt the need to address for the sake of all the impressionable youngin's that requent these forums.
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"I don't care if I fall, as long as someone picks up my gun and keeps on shooting." -Ernesto Guevara.
I'm so glad you're here to save them.
Unfortunately your evaluations are as flawed as you perceived my argument.
The Jedi and clones are separate entities. They lived ten years on Kamino in their own world and culture. They worked with Jedi for three years, were under the command of Jedi, yet they outlasted the Jedi. They were under the command of three distinct organizations, of which the Jedi were only one, so it makes perfect sense to separate the two. The Jedi are the bourgeois. The clones are the plebes.
Stormies are part clones, those clones can be separated form the Empire.
Rebel extras and cloned were not treated the same way by Lucas and they were not viewed as expendable. This is star WARS, people die, but lucas never shows any respect for any clones in the OT, and almost never in the PT. The helmets are there to devalue their humanity. Rebels have faces.
Unfortunately, I think this fails. Droids are droids. Soldiers are human. Despite the fact that they're clones and there are many of them, they are still human. Lucas shows us their humanity by showing them helmet-less. Lucas shows them dying and in pain. Treating a human like a product is abusive and disrespectful, especially for an organization that claims to be so morally superior like the Jedi.
Jedi vs Sith is the pointless power struggle.
Could we not view Separatist leaders fighting for their freedom? Have you ever imagined that the Jedi could have been "on the wrong side of the war"? I didn't see the Empire forcing anything on anybody, except for its rule through military force, which the Republic had no problem doing either.
I don't recall the Empire being portrayed a true fascist society. It was an empire. It had an army. That is not fascism or militarism. Elements, yes, but hyperactive and myopic people usually associate any degree of military presence in society with fascism.
Empire=Nazi's basically. This was never a secret, the references to an all-consuming evil Empire are clear like rain. Including the whole stormtrooper concept, which is about as direct a reference as it gets.
Ok, that was an exaggeration, but I'm fed of all this stuff where people seem to "identify" with secondary characters from the EU who appear in the film for what, five minutes?
That really does defy the whole principle of narrative, that the viewer be captivated by a character, let's take Plo Koon for example, who doesn't even have a line in the movies. Yet that whole 5 seconds he is that certain viewer's favourite character of all time in a Star Wars movie.
It's just one of those pet hates I get when I pop by onto these boards, like people who hate women drivers, or people who hate leaving tips, that kind of thing.
And so what if someone likes Plo Koon? He's canon, he's in there, f someone likes him, let him. Nor is the fact that a character is portrayed by an actor or by CGI any norm for identification. If one can identify with a character from walt Disney or Pixar movies, why shouldn't they identify with *cough cough* Jar Jar...
True but my point is there are two distinct parts of all the different entities. The Republic's army consisted of the Jedi and the Clones. The Separatists' army consisted of Sith and battle droids. The Empire consisted of high ranking officers and the Stormtroopers. The Rebels consisted of the planners or "hill-top" generals and the Rebel soldiers. All these armies have their leaders and the soldiers, which make up the bulk of the armies. The soldiers are the one's who are putting their lives on the line.
That's the hypocrisy of those high on their pedestals. Of course these clones deserved more respect than they were shown. But the Jedi had their strategy. The Separatists were throwing droid after droid so they had to respond with their own overwhelming numbers. Like it or not, they were just smarter droids. In the beginning of Ep III Anakin wants to go back to help the Clones during the space battle. But Obi-Wan reminds him that "They're doing their job." They're job was to be meat shields for the Jedi.
You're agreeing with me. I said the PT was a pointless power struggle. The OT was different.
Is any society purely what it claims to be? Is America a pure democracy? Is China purely communist? No, no, and no. But fascism, at its base, is a society that uses military might and force to rule. How was the Empire not like that? In ANH the Emperor dissolves the Senate and uses the Death Star's power to control the people. They're sure as hell not a democracy anymore.
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"I don't care if I fall, as long as someone picks up my gun and keeps on shooting." -Ernesto Guevara.
Yes, my point is the clones are treated like trash, despite the fact they are human. Droids are droids, no one cares how they are treated. Lucas shows compassion for Rebels. Lucas neglects passion for clones and stormies. Aside from their screams, Lucas never portrays any humanity in stormies, but they are portrayed in the OT as conscious supporters of the empire under their own terms.
The clones are the exception here. They are shown as men, but treated BY THE JEDI (the most "moral" group in SW) as less than men. Not because they die in war, but they are treated as expendable things that are less than men. They are treated like ordinance.
No, thats incorrect. The clones' job was to win the war...to fight. I don't object to that at all. They wouldn't either. I think any clone would gladly be a shield, but they shouldn't be EXPECTED to do so. I don't think many Jedi would give a shit if a clone died. Again, they are treated like ordinance, not like humans.
No. We are not agreeing because the power struggle in the OT is just as pointless as the PT.
VERY incorrect. The modern DEFINITION of a state is that it is the SOLE user of legitimate force. Just because something is not democratic does not magically make it fascist. Every state has an army and will use it, regardless of how democratic it is. Your association of democracy=weak army and no-democracy=fascist is poor and is a fundamental misunderstanding of the societal roles of the military in a state.
That being said its relatively irrelevant to this argument.
I have a feeling that we both understand what the Clones did and how they were treated. I guess the difference between us is simply your angry about it and I'm not. I totally agree with you that the Jedi should have had better judgment and treated the Clones better, seeing as how they carried themselves in such a way that they were morally superior and had a sort of "holier than thou" thing going on. But the Clone, regardless of the fact that they were living, breathing sentient beings which felt pain, were the proverbial pawns in this game of chess between the Jedi and Sith.
Yet I find it interesting that you accuse Lucas of both dehumanizing the Clones and attempting to show their humanity. I remember you saying something about Lucas showing occasionally showing them helmet-less and making sure we saw some die or in pain. Which is it, buddy? Is Lucas disrespecting the Clones and/or are the Jedi?
That's subjective and you are entitled to your own opinion on that. I'm sure you've made up your mind on that so I won't bother responding since it'll end up with us talking at each other instead of to each other.
I never said a totalitarian government is automatically fascist. Nor did I equate strength of military with levels of fascism. I'm a Communist, ffs. I can see a Communist society being totalitarian. I'm also American. A (shitty) example of a democratic society with a powerful military.
But, yea, I understand that in fascism, it simply means that everything is done for the betterment of the state and that the state has supreme rule over all. However, this is accomplished by military force or a highly charismatic leader, usually both. The Empire had both. The only flaw with calling the Empire a fascist society is that fascism rebukes the idea of perpetual peace and the doctrine of Pacifism. Palpatine claimed to be attempting to create a secure and safe society.
But to be fair, I used the term very losely. It wasn't meant as a political statement, just an easy way to describe the oppressiveness of the Empire, since 90% of the world equates fascism with oppression.
Troof.
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"I don't care if I fall, as long as someone picks up my gun and keeps on shooting." -Ernesto Guevara.
KMC Community Forums
Feb 15th, 2007 04:12 PM
Thanks to Pittman for the sig
