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Thor vs. Wonder Woman
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Diana won in Sacrifice, though even Rucka admitted that his opinion on Superman vs. Wonder Woman (that he was more powerful, but she had a slight edge in a 1v1) was in the decided minority. I don't agree with your depiction of the DoomSuperman fight at all, though. She was shown to be much less powerful in that fight, needed help and a distraction to win, and Superman wasn't thinking clearly.


And he was also, y'know, transformed to be doomsday-y, cover-with bone, more muscle than normal form ^^

Also he had help- Silver Swan stole her lasso early on to prevent an easier win.

quote:

And Superman has many, many showings where it is flat out stated Diana is #2 to him.


Exactly. She's number 2 in his eyes, not Captain Marvel or Martian Manhunter or so on.


Wonder Woman is less powerful, but close enough that tactics and magic hax can get some wins.


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Old Post Nov 7th, 2013 10:24 PM
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pym-ftw
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by JayDaDon
What's Nu52 superman done that puts him above Surfer in your opinion?

It has more to do with superman becoming more vicious, which really hurts surfers chances.

Forum mode surfer rapes him though.


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Old Post Nov 7th, 2013 10:33 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
She barely did better, maybe even worse depending on who you ask, then Orion fighting as a brick. The loss of protection from removing her bracers (Although they wouldn't really stand up that much to Mjolnir based on how they broke)


Yea, the lack of the block-all bracers is a big loss. She probably can't form an aegis shield against a godblast either.


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Old Post Nov 7th, 2013 10:37 PM
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maxivitopowe
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Can't c pic clearly but isn't that a God bullet

Now that I think about it that probably doesn't help cos I guess an implied sentient God hammer would probably be greater than love God bullet

Old Post Nov 7th, 2013 10:43 PM
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Q99
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Can't c pic clearly but isn't that a God bullet


Yes.


Classic WW's bracers had no problem with god weapons and attacks of all sorts, so a big change.


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Old Post Nov 7th, 2013 11:52 PM
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quanchi112
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Thor wins, solidly.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 12:00 AM
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carver9
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Can someone answer this for me. In a one on one fight, has Diana lose to anyone Herald level.?


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 12:10 AM
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Sasaraixx
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Yes.


Classic WW's bracers had no problem with god weapons and attacks of all sorts, so a big change.


A very disappointing one.

Then again, it doesn't seem like much of Az's work is finding its way into the rest of DCU. I can only hope that is one element that gets left out.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 12:39 AM
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h1a8
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Ww wins. More skilled and much faster. Lasso can win in one shot.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:26 AM
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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:27 AM
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h1a8
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
Yes.


Classic WW's bracers had no problem with god weapons and attacks of all sorts, so a big change.
actually we don't know the nature of that bullet. So we can't say that her bracers are weaker. The bullet could be something they could penetrate anything in the universe.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:28 AM
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Zack Fair
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Would be cool if there was a limit to how much they can deflect. As in lets suppose she tanks a godblast. The attack is nullified, her main defense is destroyed but since she is without her bracers she gets that amp of her's for a can of whoop ass.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:33 AM
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Pillow Biter
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Exactly. It might be a slight change, but it is still just one showing. Even Cap's shield has been busted. It still stops Mjolnir.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:33 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
And he was also, y'know, transformed to be doomsday-y, cover-with bone, more muscle than normal form ^^

Also he had help- Silver Swan stole her lasso early on to prevent an easier win.


There is nothing about him being amped physically in that issue. The Doomsday-like cosmetic changes are just a magical manifestation of his new bestial personal and unleashed rage. When Diana remarks on his strength, she isn't surprised by him being stronger than normal. She says she forgot how strong he was.

Any help by Swan is more than compensated for by Superman fighting like a mindless beast--something Diana clearly capitalizes on to survive. Nothing in that fight suggests Diana would win, or even draw, a fair fight with a smart Superman. This isn't evidence for Diana being equal to Clark in a fight.

Sacrfice, however, is. Though what I find weird about that fight is how much ambiguity it introduced. I spoke to Rucca directly on a rather obscure message board (might have been his website or blog) just a short time before that fight came out. Rucca was very straightforward in his opinion that Superman is more powerful than Diana, and overall more formidable in most kinds of situations (fighting robots, big groups with varied power sets, space armadas, etc.). But he thought that her martial skills and equipment were very effective in 1 on 1, primarily physical fights, between humanoid opponents--situations that martial arts are ideal for. Thus he felt Diana had a slight edge n a straight 1 on 1 fight versus Superman. I naturally tend to interpret the fight in Sacrifice in light of those comments--and give him the benefit of the doubt. But I find it curious why in the end he didn't write a fight that gave Diana an unambiguous victory. Having her pass out for a bit, and having Superman think she was Doomsday (who doesn't have weapons or fight like she does) introduces ambiguity. So why he didn't give her a totally clean win evades me. Maybe editorial got involved?

Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:44 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
And he was also, y'know, transformed to be doomsday-y, cover-with bone, more muscle than normal form ^^

Also he had help- Silver Swan stole her lasso early on to prevent an easier win.



Exactly. She's number 2 in his eyes, not Captain Marvel or Martian Manhunter or so on.


Wonder Woman is less powerful, but close enough that tactics and magic hax can get some wins.

He wasn't amped in any way or form strength wise. He would've killed her in two more double handed strikes on her bracers. That's a huge strength difference.

Superman calling wonder woman second in line isn't such a compliment. He has flat out said that Cap is his equal under the same writer Joe Kelly just 7 issues later.


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Pillow Biter
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Yeah, I don't know why people think that was a Wonder Woman win. Sacrifice is the only WW win.

Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:48 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
There is nothing about him being amped physically in that issue. The Doomsday-like cosmetic changes are just a magical manifestation of his new bestial personal and unleashed rage. When Diana remarks on his strength, she isn't surprised by him being stronger than normal. She says she forgot how strong he was.

Any help by Swan is more than compensated for by Superman fighting like a mindless beast--something Diana clearly capitalizes on to survive. Nothing in that fight suggests Diana would win, or even draw, a fair fight with a smart Superman. This isn't evidence for Diana being equal to Clark in a fight.

Sacrfice, however, is. Though what I find weird about that fight is how much ambiguity it introduced. I spoke to Rucca directly on a rather obscure message board (might have been his website or blog) just a short time before that fight came out. Rucca was very straightforward in his opinion that Superman is more powerful than Diana, and overall more formidable in most kinds of situations (fighting robots, big groups with varied power sets, space armadas, etc.). But he thought that her martial skills and equipment were very effective in 1 on 1, primarily physical fights, between humanoid opponents--situations that martial arts are ideal for. Thus he felt Diana had a slight edge n a straight 1 on 1 fight versus Superman. I naturally tend to interpret the fight in Sacrifice in light of those comments--and give him the benefit of the doubt. But I find it curious why in the end he didn't write a fight that gave Diana an unambiguous victory. Having her pass out for a bit, and having Superman think she was Doomsday (who doesn't have weapons or fight like she does) introduces ambiguity. So why he didn't give her a totally clean win evades me. Maybe editorial got involved?

Its not like that. Under Rucka Superman beat down Replikon who had the power of whole JLA minus superman and especially wonder woman.



If rucka thought Wonder Woman had an edge against superman in h2h, he didn't show it in the comics. Superman oneshotted her, broke her arm like a twig and all she did was knock him down using his weak points and ran away.


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Silent Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by h1a8
actually we don't know the nature of that bullet. So we can't say that her bracers are weaker. The bullet could be something they could penetrate anything in the universe.


Do you have any evidence that would indicate such a thing, or are you just making things up that have no basis in the comics?

Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:52 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Yeah, I don't know why people think that was a Wonder Woman win. Sacrifice is the only WW win.

Even Sacrifice isn't a wonder woman win. All she did was blindside a superman who didn't know anything about his enemy having a magical tiara and immediately break the mental control. Batman did this on watchtower too, was it a win for batman? Superman was speaking through slit throat FFS, it wasn't that much of a hindrance.


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Old Post Nov 8th, 2013 04:56 AM
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abhilegend
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Q99
But fun fact: Wonder Woman (or at least pre-Nu52) has a better track record against Superman than CM does. CM's never won a strait fight, he's either done a suckerpunch, got a draw, or lost. WW both pulled a Tiara win in the end in Sacrifice, and submitted Doomsdayified Superman with her lasso.
Fun fact, breaking mind control isn't a win. Superman did this to mindcontrolled wonder woman.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/167...0hacsa.jpg.html

Is that a win for Superman?

Also compare Wonder Woman's sucker attack on Superman where she flat out admits she can't beat him.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOnea.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOneb.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOnec.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOned.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOnee.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...eagueOfOnef.jpg

To Cap's sucker attack where he knocks out Superman in two hits.

(please log in to view the image) (please log in to view the image)

Tell me who looks superior.
quote:
Wonder Woman is consistently shown to be his peer, and Superman pegs her as the next top hero if something happens to him.
He said that to her and 7 issues later said that he considers Cap his equal in every way.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums...nComics768b.jpg

Under the same writer.

quote:
Batman's said that if she went evil, he's the only hero for the job of stopping her, notably said with Martian Manhunter in the room.
J'onn has flat out beaten Wonder Woman in JLA Classified 46 and was swinging her unconscious body like a bat on superman.



quote:
There's equal in general tier, and there's precisely equal. Wonder Woman and Superman are both equals in the same general tier sense, as is Gladiator and Martian Manhunter and Beta Ray Bill and such. Wonder Woman isn't precisely equal, but she's general tier, and outmatches several character who are also in the same general tier.
Your stance was just as laughable years ago as it is now. Diana is second to superman at her best and in her own comic. At his best he is a different beast altogether.


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Last edited by abhilegend on Nov 8th, 2013 at 05:19 AM

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