Her initial presentation was trans, imo [above God of War Wonder Woman physicals, OBs capable of one-shotting the bracelets/vaporizing CSA SuperWoman/go through Darkseid, axe which one-shots Shazam/destroy high-end GLs combined constructs, motherbox], but then she was toned down to Diana's level entirely [Robinson's arc]], so I'd say HH.
__________________
“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
Max Lord- Probably HM. He's got some very good showings, but we have Xavier at LH, and as a telepath I'd likely put Max a tier below him in general.
Catman- MS.
Deadman- LH as mentioned.
Grail- Really not sure. She's taken a helluva hit since Johns. Maybe HH or MH at this point?
Simon Baz/Jessica- MH.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
-Grail - High Herald - Yes.
-Catman - High Street - Yes, from what little I know of him, he seems to fit right in. Unless he's had a nerf I don't know about.
-Simon Baz/Jessica - Mid-Herald - Yes.
-Maxwell Lord - High Meta - Yes.
Catman high Street
Maxwell Lord high meta
Big Barda low herald
Invincible/Omni Man/Conquest mid herald
Ninjak - low meta (from what I've seen, feel free to change my mind though)
Crossbones should be in high-street but it's possible recent showings may show otherwise. He's had good showings against Cap, held his own against the Red Skull with SSS while he was tired and decimated Bullseye in h2h. However I'm aware in Brubakers run he made Winter Soldier humilate him, don't know why.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Ok gonna make my pitch for cap going to LM. First for all Cap is LM statwise it makes no sense to put him in high-street. Sorry link doesn't work but everyone knows this quote.
Bare in mind Brubaker has written for Batman and Captain America, also Brubaker did not write DD born again. Clearly we can see as Brubaker put it he's not Spiderman but he is above all human street levelers who train a lot. Not only that there are no writers who have stated that Batman is equal to Captain America, all appearances where Cap and Batman have met have implied he is a superior specimen except a fan based crossover where Cap lost to Batman. Not to mention that Cap also has a healing factor and enhanced intelligence. In the Secret Avengers series Beast states that Cap is a supersoldier that can master any weapon in seconds (Secret Avengers 16) and after a fight where Cap gets bloodied and bruised he states that he heals fast (Secret Avengers 9). Here's one more reference to his enhanced intelligence
So in other words Cap statwise is Marvel's Deathsroke but Deathstroke is in a tier above him?
Lets get into his standard equipment the main thing is his shield and it's been argued that Batman has more vesatility with his gear but I would argue that Cap is just as effective. Lets go through some examples....
First of all it's indestructible, Batman can't dodge forever and in situations where he's dealing with a powerful opponent not having anything to block could get him killed. One such situation is where Cap is locked in a room with D-Man who was amped to the Things level in strength and was going beserk. How Cap got out of this was by dodging him for an hour until the effects of his amp ran out he wasn't able to dodge all his blows but at some points in the fight he had to block. Well what would Batman do? I suspect that Batman doesn't carry gear that can KO the Thing as standard equipment but maybe he would be able to surive by throwing stuff in D-Man's eyes but I don't think that would work forever. I think Batman would be in serious trouble in that situation.
Here's another example Cap gets chucked out of a plane 100's of feet in the air. Now the problem is that the shield can withstand the impact so even if Cap lands on the ground with his shield covering his body he's still going to die, so Cap had to time the landing exactly so that when he hit the ground he would role off his sheild to disperse the force of impact. The shield he was using at the time was one made by Black Panther as a substitute for the original one. Now I think Batman would have just glided but even without gliders Cap still survived.
We also know that Cap has trick shots with his shield and can use it tactically, for example when fighting Spiderman in Civil War Spiderman thought he had missed when all Cap was doing was putting Spiderman into position. There are lots of examples of Cap doing this.
I could go into other examples but just take into consideration that Cap has been into loads of deathtraps and he's gotten out of them with just his stats, skill and shield. He's also been able to get out of Skrull handcuffs WITHOUT his shield by just using his wits. The handcuffs where designed for shapeshifters and ones that could even turn into energy. We could also mention Cap while in the dying body of the Red Skull was able to dodge a blast from Yellowjacket and land him on his back with a piunch and be able to pressure point Giant Man. He was also able to survive long enough against The Sisters of Sin (trained by Red Skull) who had him trapped in a room and strapped to a table. He was still managed to find a way to fight back despite that he was in an old frail body. He's also held his own against Taskmaster who had explosive arrows and a sword and shield while he was unarmed etc etc.
What about his martial art skill? There's actually no reason to think in skill level alone that Cap is on the same level as Batman. He was better trained he was trained by the American Government who have more resources than Batman, he has more experience and not only that the type of experience is better than Batmans. Cap started off fighting Nazis who were well trained and fanatical and other meta-humans at the start of his career while Batman started off fighting gangsters and street thugs. Not only that the opponents that Cap faces and his rogue-gallery are in general more dangerous than Batmans. Eventhough this doesn't neccesarily have to relate to martial art skill specifically it makes absolute no sense to put Batman in a tier above Cap when Cap's enemies are generally more dangerous.
Also he doesn't need to mention how many martial arts he knows. It's already pretty clear he knows them all (and probably some alien ones as well), but when you can register a pressure point on Proffessor Hulk, TKO Thunderball, stun Wonder Man, hurt Abomination etc etc, you're obvoulsy showing a high level of martial art skill and in this regard Cap is superior to Batman.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
The two situations you describe that are tailor made for the shield to look good… are two situations Batman would manage easily with his standard equipment. And there are tons Batman would handle better if we were to invent scenarios to make him look good.
All situations that heroes are put into to an extent are tailor made to make them survive because if they weren't the hero would die and that would be the end of the series so use that as an excuse is a cop out. However what is obvious is that the writer wanted to show how impressive Cap's skills were and there are lots of situations were heroes have been dropped from a great hieght or been trapped and survive. I'm pretty sure that Batman would easily survive being dropped out of plane but feel free to prove that he could survive for an hour trapped in a room with somebody as strong as the Thing.
I gave lots of other examples....
EDIT: Also when giving lots of examples in some situations Caps shield is going to be more useful than Batmans gear, that's just a fact. Labelling it as being tailor made again is a cop out, it's just merely a situation where Caps gear has an advantage.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Feb 5th, 2019 at 02:54 PM
Batman has gas bombs, freeze bombs and weapons that can drop enemies over his weight class without much issue. By the same token the flexibility those items provide is higher than Cap's shield by default, unless you can prove Cap can catch a mid-flight helicopter or stop a fire with his shield?
A situation tailor made for Cap's shield is simply when he has to take a hit.
Oh right so he has stuff on him that can take out the Thing as standard equipment?
Doesn't mean there are more effective. In a lot of circumstance Cap can solve problems by wacking people over the head.
Are you serious? He's stopped a small helicopter with his barehands in mid-flight, sliced the top of a tank with his shield and sliced a truck in half. It also depends on the situation he doesn't neccesarily need to stop it like Batman did. He probably has stopped a fire in his career especially if it's an open envinronment. The fact that he has gotten out of lots of complicated situations (and some I have listed already) indicates that he probably could. Prove that Batman can save his an ally who is tied to a missle after it has already launched and is a long way in the air (no hacking).
One thing I will say that when giving examples I considered that the best examples are examples in combat. Examples out of combat are nice to show versatility but at the end of the day the most important example are ones used in combat. For example Cap maybe not be able to stop a fire but he can beat The Human Torch....by wacking him over the head....lol.
Which is irrelevant because sometimes Batman has to take a hit as well and when he is in those situations Caps shield is more useful.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Oh heres another situation for you. Cap damages a giant robot by reflecting its beam with his shield onto itself so it destroys it's leg... That's not a situation were Cap had to take a hit he could have avoided the beam but turned defence into offence. Don't think Batman has giant robot destroying gear as standard.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
If it's not something that hits the shield directly, or something that can be hit with the shield [and who would not simply grab it and make Cap defenseless], he's useless.
I'd take Nightwing or Green Arrow, based on tech, in a tourney before Cap, in a heartbeat. He's far too unidimensional.
So my vote is no, as well.
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“Perhaps this is the ultimate freedom. The freedom to leave.”
KMC Community Forums
Feb 3rd, 2019 01:51 PM
@ Grail. HH would be my 'final answer', too. 
