quote: (post)

Originally posted by Pyropsycho
That unit in and of itself can easily be the deciding factor in any battle. There are many other things to consider in balance other than just cost and destructive capacity. The mothership by itself introduces not only an addition to the protoss arsenal, but an addition to the protoss strategy and it essentially adds a new concept to the game. Similar to heroes in warcraft (but obviously not of the same magnitude). What you basically have is a one man army that can change your ability to fight from "nothing" to "substantial" the instant it comes out of the factory. And you can hide it too. If no one knows you have one you have a lot of leverage. I don't know about you, but to me, that spells out "trump card".
And yes if the races are to be balanced, all of them need a trump card or none of them do.

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Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Its powers did seem overpowered (which they said they were working on), and my comment wasn't specifically to that concept it was to the overall race in general. My point was that giving a race one particular unit like that and not the others would change balance because it would change an interface of gameplay and give that race options that the other races didn't have. If anyone hadn't noticed, this time around the units are more "rock-paper-scissors" than in the last game. This Starcraft had units that were specifically created to counter other units and nothing else. Like the reapers countering the immortals. This unit seemed like it didn't have a "counter unit". It would be the thing that would be taken down by a vast number of units or a large combination of them.

That's just like if the Protoss had an addition 10 or 20 units it would become increasingly imbalanced because they would have more options. Hence the reason they generally make counterparts to certain units and give them roles on similar parts of the tech tree.

Siege Tank=Reaver=Lurker. Etc.

But I'm not sure the development of the game, I was saying what I saw from the video. At that point it seemed the protoss was. In short I guess it just needs more time.

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Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's still nonsense.

IF that unit is unbalanced, it unbalances the game.

But if ANY unit is unbalanced, it unbalances the game. Tjhe fact that this unit is a. big and b. you can onoy build one of them changes nothing at all.

It is nonsense to try and make up extra things that make my statement above void. Total nonsense. because only one thing counts- its effectuveness compared to its cost. Absolutely anything useful you give to it is simply part of its effectiveness. So long as its cost is in proportion to its usefulness, nothing else matters.

Saying that just because the Protoss have a unique unit it unbalances the game is the same as saying just becauswe the Zerg in the original had a growth instead of a build structure ruined the game. It's nonsense, it was all in proportion.

It's very poor perspective to think there is fundamentally any difference between a unit you can build one of and one you can build lots of. It is still just a unit.

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Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's very strange to say, because Starcraft is renowned as one of the most R-P-S mechaniced games ever made.

Talking of Immortals- what a very weird name for them.

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Originally posted by Pyropsycho
There are times in an SC game where I'd be willing to pay 3000 minerals for an asset like that. And it's just one unit. go figure.

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Originally posted by Pyropsycho
This is where your wrong. Many people are under the impression that any unit can be balanced by weighing it's effectiveness in battle, mobility, etc. and making it all one big number to say that's how much it costs. And I'm afraid it's not nearly that simple.
Just having the option of building a mothership produces a multitude of contingencies and possible strategies exclusive to the protoss. As I was saying the concept behind it is a trump card. Expensive or not it's an asset that is more than just fire power. For example: The enemy attacks your base. You send your mothership out to attack one of their outposts and they have to turn their guys around to stop you. A one-man diversion. There are times in an SC game where I'd be willing to pay 3000 minerals for an asset like that. And it's just one unit. go figure.

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Originally posted by Pyropsycho
"immortals" was kind of odd. I mean it fits the description, but I like "dragoons" better.

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Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, all that is just noise. It doesn't change anything at all.

You know, the odd thing is, that if there WASN'T a unit limit on this, no-one woule be complaining. People would say "Well, it is powerful, but it costs a lot, so that's ok."

But then they make it so you can only have one of them, and suddenly it becomes unbalancing? What total nonsense!

It's just another unit. Like any other unit.

Your example is ludicrous. You could make a diversion with any unit, or group of units of the same cost as this one. Make the same example and simply substitute six battlecruisers for this Protoss unit and the final effect is identical. If this Protoss units costs the same as six battlecruisers, why does the fact it is one unit make any difference? I mean, are you just very bad at selecting more than one unit?

You're making no sense at all, and you are going to find this is a load of fuss over something irrelevant.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, it doesn't really defeat the descriotion, because they're not really immortal, and the military reference is to the ancestral unit that always replaced its dead so it was at the same strength- hence, Immortal, everlasting.

The description for these guys specifies that they are ever getting fewer and fewer, which kinda blows that out the window.

quote: (post)

Originally posted by Pyropsycho
If you want to play the numbers game (this costs this, and that costs that) at least account for build times. Assume that it is worth six BCs in terms of overall effectiveness. Blizzard isn't gonna make a unit that takes ten minutes to roll off the assembly line. tech tree wise you're guarenteed it'll be at the top. But once it's buildable, it won't take THAT long to make. The longest amount of time I see blizzard possibly putting into making a unit "like any other unit" would be as much as a level 2 upgrade, which is pushing it anyway (cause that's more than twice the time it takes to make a BC).
Also if you know anything at all about starcraft, you know that different units have certain strengths and weaknesses. take a corsair vs. a scout. The corsair costs much less than a scout. But would a group of scouts or corsairs take the most casualties from a scourge rush? scouts obviously. Their missiles take too long to hit their target. Cost does not determine effectiveness. That is a very basic principle in just about any RTS.
If you saw the mothership, it's function in battle would probably be heavy support and quickly leveling small bases. Have her behind a bunch of little pawn units and you can see the effects from that video. As for bases just send her in everytime she has full energy, turn up the shields and use that beam thing until you're all out. Then run the hell away before reinforcements come.
And if it's just "like any other unit" you can recall it with an arbiter, which makes it REALLY broken.
Likewise it has it's weaknesses. It may have about the effectiveness as three or four BCs in terms of base killing but the video also showed that that's all it takes to bring one down, a few battlecruisers.
So overall it might be a good idea to make a mothership hit a small outpost or provide firesupport for your army, but it would be a bad idea to send her alone to fight other large units. See how much her effectiveness ranges based on her function? One way she's leveling bases, another she's squashed by a few BCs.
Bottom line is there are a lot more factors to effectiveness than cost. Function in battle, versatility, and ease of management all determine effectiveness. And you can't just make some grand formula to work all those factors down into one big cost. It doesn't work that way, especially for Blizzard, they are way too intricate with the balance procedure, to use just a simple formula to solve all their problems.