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Fingolfin vs. Feanor
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Stealth Moose
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It's not just one quote though about skill of hand. His endurance and might is explicitly stated to be the best. Feanor fought hard and bitterly against multiple Maiar, the same that threatened Ungoliant after she had gourged herself on the light of the Trees, which is ridiculous in ability for even a First Age elf. Hell, when he died, he was so full of the spirit of flame, his body burnt to ashes.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2014 08:57 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
His endurance and might is explicitly stated to be the best.
Is there a quote for this specifically pertaining to combat? Tolkien's use of "mighty" is a tad poetic.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2014 11:50 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Ares quoted it before in this thread. I'd copy and paste but I'm on the mobile.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 12:55 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Here it is:

    "For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."


"mightiest in all parts of the body and mind"

"in valour"

"in endurance"

"in skill"

"in strength and subtlety alike, of all the Children of Ilúvatar"

That's pretty definitive.


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Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 05:11 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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How has the discussion lasted this long.. the answer is clearly Feanor and easily.

It's like having Mace fight Dooku.. it would be that easy eh Moosie.

Old Post Jan 3rd, 2014 04:37 PM
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themadsurfer
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"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwe, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Earwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualonde, Olwe's daughter."
- The Silmarillion, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."

Both sentences at first sight and without any context or history behind may be contradictory. But in my opinion Fingolfin "regularly" is stronger(like lifting power) because in routine tasks such as fight training he may be stronger than most elves including his brother BUT when it comes to a fight to the death or something like that the "Spirit power thing" comes in place and there is where Feanor seems to boost himself(when he died his spirit took the body away).
Tolkien made some mentions about the spiritual power of the elves. Like when Tolkien talks about how the Noldor are more deadly in anger, or when Fingolfin looked like a Vala, Glorfindel besides also being told to be deadly in anger also had an Aura surrounding him, Finrod bursting his bounds while Beren(one of the strongest men) couldn't.
So when it concerns the strength of the elves the "SPIRITUAL POWER" has a great deal.
In my opinion despite Fingolfin being a better warrior no elf has such a spiritual power as Feanor have and that may give Feanor the win in some circumstances.
There is another example of Spiritual power: - Orome when gets angry is unstoppable and probably would give Tulkas a freaking hard time.

Old Post Jan 18th, 2014 10:00 PM
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NemeBro
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Fingolfin wins. I now know this more than ever.

When Fingolfin's anger was truly roused, his spirit was such that all of Morgoth's armies fled before him in fear, and he proceeded to badly maim Morgoth, the mightiest being in Middle Earth, before dying. Morgoth, who could still reshape mountain ranges and just days before scorched the countryside with fire.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 12:36 AM
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Stealth Moose
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend of the sons of Olwe, lord of the Teleri, and had to wife Earwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualonde, Olwe's daughter."
- The Silmarillion, Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie

"For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."

Both sentences at first sight and without any context or history behind may be contradictory. But in my opinion Fingolfin "regularly" is stronger(like lifting power) because in routine tasks such as fight training he may be stronger than most elves including his brother BUT when it comes to a fight to the death or something like that the "Spirit power thing" comes in place and there is where Feanor seems to boost himself(when he died his spirit took the body away).
Tolkien made some mentions about the spiritual power of the elves. Like when Tolkien talks about how the Noldor are more deadly in anger, or when Fingolfin looked like a Vala, Glorfindel besides also being told to be deadly in anger also had an Aura surrounding him, Finrod bursting his bounds while Beren(one of the strongest men) couldn't.
So when it concerns the strength of the elves the "SPIRITUAL POWER" has a great deal.
In my opinion despite Fingolfin being a better warrior no elf has such a spiritual power as Feanor have and that may give Feanor the win in some circumstances.
There is another example of Spiritual power: - Orome when gets angry is unstoppable and probably would give Tulkas a freaking hard time.


Good points. Of course, Glorfindel in LOTR trilogy has been reborn and elevated, and I think he's bordering on Maiar levels of badassery. The Nine wouldn't even mess with him.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Fingolfin wins. I now know this more than ever.

When Fingolfin's anger was truly roused, his spirit was such that all of Morgoth's armies fled before him in fear, and he proceeded to badly maim Morgoth, the mightiest being in Middle Earth, before dying. Morgoth, who could still reshape mountain ranges and just days before scorched the countryside with fire.


Some of this I take issue with; Morgoth did not exercise any land-shifting level powers in their fight, but fought Fingolfin admirably, and Fingolfin was vastly overpowered. It wasn't if he'd lose, it was just a matter of time. He wounded Morgoth, to be sure, but that isn't a sign of mastery. He had to dance about continually so as not to die. At no point did he contend with or hold off magical attacks, high sorcery, or anything other than avoiding the oversized weapon of his enemy. Don't get me wrong; Fingolfin is a righteous badass. And I think with his battle experience he could overcome Feanor or at least stalemate the latter's natural talent, but this reason seems stretched.

If you're matching skill for skill or strength for strength, Fingolfin has the edge.

Also, the only reason why armies fled is because they mistook him for Oromë, who is in a league well above any elf. This isn't a combat feat worthy of anything. If it suddenly is, then Feanor's death implies his spirit is more powerful than any elf (which Tolkien already said anyways) and he could probably just overcome Fingolfin with his spirit-magic-innate power.


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Last edited by Stealth Moose on Jan 19th, 2014 at 02:41 AM

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 02:39 AM
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themadsurfer
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Actually it is said that many Noldor surpassed their teachers/Maiar for example even Gandalf wouldn't mes up against Galadriel or Finrod Felagund who also made a hard time against Sauron. Also the power hierarchy sometimes have nothing to do with combat that's why Glorfindel could kill a Balrog.
In Glorfindel's case I don't believe he was elevated at all he was reborn with the mighty of the Elder days which were>>>>third age.
First age there were elves that could stand against Balrogs, battle in terms of powers against Sauron, make Morgoth sleep and decimate orc armies like they were nothing. So if some badass first age elf appear in the third age it's not going to be beings(The Nine) with a lot less power than a Maiar(Sauron) that are going to put him down.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 03:42 AM
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ares834
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Actually Stealth is entirely correct on both points. According to Tolkien, "He then became again a living incarnate person, but was permitted to dwell in the Blessed Realm; for he had regained the primitive innocence and grace of the Eldar. For long years he remained in Valinor, in reuinion with the Eldar who had not rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate (to whom a bodily form not made or chosen by himself was necessary) his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice."


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Last edited by ares834 on Jan 19th, 2014 at 04:22 AM

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 04:16 AM
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wow that's nice ares834!!!please could you tell me the book where this is written? and the date? because this passage also proves the fact that he killed a Balrog. This passage would mean that he became more powerful than even the Noldor princes? don't think so, it's just stated that he achieved the spiritual power of many maiar but as I said many Noldor had already surpassed many of the Maiar. For example Galadriel was still very powerful and probably more than him.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 05:01 AM
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ares834
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It's from HoMe 12 and was, according to Christopher, likely written in 1972. So right near the end of Tolkien's life. And, while the Noldor did surpass the Maiar in certain aspects, I doubt it was in spiritual power. I also agree that Galadriel was still greater than him.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 05:10 AM
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Thanks for that!!! But don't forget that I'm not talking about average I'm just saying that the most powerful Noldor(with the exeption of Galadriel and Feanor) surpassed the middle powered Maiar for example. It would be quite impossible for a Noldor to be more powerful than Melian or Osse. And also don't forget about the power combat between Finrod and Sauron.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2014 05:40 AM
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Why do you believe Galadriel surpassed Gandalf in power again?

Old Post Jan 22nd, 2014 06:58 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Did you guys know that in the real world, obsessing over the meaning and intent behind single passages in books of fiction is considered a sign of mental illness?


I'm sure glad I didn't know that.


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Old Post Jan 23rd, 2014 09:49 PM
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Stealth Moose
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Sorry that doesn't fit my worldview.

PURGING.


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Old Post Jan 23rd, 2014 10:25 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Some of this I take issue with; Morgoth did not exercise any land-shifting level powers in their fight, but fought Fingolfin admirably, and Fingolfin was vastly overpowered.


Grond rent massive craters into the ground that lava spurted out of. His mace alone shifts the land.

Fingolfin was beating his nancy ass is what you mean. Morgoth won solely because his stamina is effectively infinite, and Fingolfin's is not. With equal stamina, Fingolfin would have laid him low.

quote:
It wasn't if he'd lose, it was just a matter of time. He wounded Morgoth, to be sure, but that isn't a sign of mastery. He had to dance about continually so as not to die.


He was able to dance about Morgoth's attacks due to his martial supremacy, yes. Oh, and he actually did endure three strikes from Morgoth before finally being pinned to the ground under Morgoth's heel.

quote:
At no point did he contend with or hold off magical attacks, high sorcery, or anything other than avoiding the oversized weapon of his enemy. Don't get me wrong; Fingolfin is a righteous badass. And I think with his battle experience he could overcome Feanor or at least stalemate the latter's natural talent, but this reason seems stretched.


Your father said that last night.

quote:
If you're matching skill for skill or strength for strength, Fingolfin has the edge.

Also, the only reason why armies fled is because they mistook him for Oromë, who is in a league well above any elf. This isn't a combat feat worthy of anything. If it suddenly is, then Feanor's death implies his spirit is more powerful than any elf (which Tolkien already said anyways) and he could probably just overcome Fingolfin with his spirit-magic-innate power.


So what you are telling me is that Fingolfin's might as such that he was mistaken for a Valar?

That... Isn't helping Feanor's case.


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2014 12:42 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by NemeBro
Grond rent massive craters into the ground that lava spurted out of. His mace alone shifts the land.

Fingolfin was beating his nancy ass is what you mean. Morgoth won solely because his stamina is effectively infinite, and Fingolfin's is not. With equal stamina, Fingolfin would have laid him low.



He was able to dance about Morgoth's attacks due to his martial supremacy, yes. Oh, and he actually did endure three strikes from Morgoth before finally being pinned to the ground under Morgoth's heel.



Your father said that last night.



So what you are telling me is that Fingolfin's might as such that he was mistaken for a Valar?

That... Isn't helping Feanor's case.


    Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld (as it seemed to him) the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-no-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

    That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly, for though his might was the greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for the rocks rang with the shrill music of Fingolfin's horn, and his voice came keen and clear down into the depths of Angband; and Fingolfin named Morgoth craven, and lord of slaves. Therefore Morgoth came, climbing slowly from his subterranean throne, and the rumour of his feet was like thunder underground. And he issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it like a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

    Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth, whence smoke and fire darted. Many times Morgoth essayed to emite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away, as a lightning shoots from under a dark cloud; and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay, and the cries echoed in the Northlands.

    But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled with the pits of Grond.


I've reposted the battle in its entirety for everyone, really. Rereading it also was necessary to make sure I'm on the same footing as yourself. Now, below is the battle of Fëanor...

    Under the cold stars before the rising of the Moon the host of Fëanor went up the long Firth of Drengist that pierced the Echoing Hills of Ered Lómin, and passed thus from the shores into the great land of Hithlum; and they came at length to the long lake of Mithrim, and upon its northern shore made their encampment in the region that bore the same name. But the host of Morgoth, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin, the Mountains of Shadow, and assailed Fëanor on a sudden, before his camp was full-wrought or put in defence; and there on the grey fields of Mithrim was fought the Second Battle in the Wars of Beleriand. Dagor-nuin-Giliath it is named, the Battle-under-Stars, for the Moon had not yet risen; and it is renowned in song. The Noldor, outnumbered and taken unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords were long and terrible. The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim in great slaughter, and hunted over the Mountains of Shadow into the great plain of Ard-galen, that lay northward of Dorthonion. There the armies of Morgoth that had passed south into the Vale of Sirion and beleaguered Cirdan in the Havens of the Falas came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin. For Celegorm, Fëanor's son, having news of them, waylaid them with a part of the Elven-host, and coming down upon them out of the hills near Eithel Sirion drove them into the Fen of Serech. Evil indeed were the tidings that came at last to Angband, and Morgoth was dismayed. Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves.

    Yet cause he had for great hoy, thought it was hidden from him for a while. For Fëanor, in his wrath against the Enemy, would not halt, but pressed on behind the remnant of the Orcs, thinkg so to come at Morgoth himself; and he laughed aloud as he wielded his sword, rejoicing that he had dared the wrath of the Valar and the evils of the road, that he might see the hour of his vengenace. Nothing did he know of Angband or the great strength of defence that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared; but even had he known it would not have deterred him, for he was fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. Thus it was that he drew far ahead of the van of his host; and seeing this the servants of Morgoth turned to bay, and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them. There upon the confines of Dor Daedeloth, the land of Morgoth, Fëanor was surrounded, and with few friends about him. Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds; but at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom Ecthelion after slew in Gondolin. There he would have perished, had not his sons in that moment come up with a force to his aid: and the Balrogs left him, and departed to Angband.

    Then his sons raised up their father and bore him back towards Mithrim. But as they drew near to Eithel Sirion and were upon the upward path to the pass over the mountains, Fëanor bade them halt; for his wounds were mortal, and he knew that his hour was come. And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with foreknowledge of death that no power of Noldor would ever overthrow them; but he cursed the name of Morgoth thrice, and laid it upon his sons to hold to their oath, and to avenge their father. There he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness was never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor, of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe.


After typing both of these out, I echo that Fingolfin is a righteous hardass and one of my favorite Tolkien characters. But I still feel the narrative ranks Fëanor higher, in deeds (fighting for ten days, against ridiculous odds, on fire, wounded, etc.) and overall in terms of prestige and place among Noldor (which includes Fingolfin).


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2014 03:10 AM
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Fingolfin wins. thumb up


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2014 05:48 AM
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You suck.


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2014 07:01 AM
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