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Fingolfin vs. Feanor
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NemeBro
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Old Post Jan 25th, 2014 07:08 AM
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Old Post Jan 26th, 2014 12:13 AM
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Old Post Jan 27th, 2014 03:27 AM
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Old Post Jan 27th, 2014 10:55 PM
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themadsurfer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why do you believe Galadriel surpassed Gandalf in power again?


Galadriel>Glorfindel, she was said to be the mightiest of the elves of the Third age.
Glorfindel=Gandalf(spiritual power), Glorifindel was capable of scarring the WK twice while Gandalf was very worried about him(almost afraid)

Old Post Mar 24th, 2014 01:26 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Gandalf the Grey or White?


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Old Post Mar 24th, 2014 04:16 PM
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themadsurfer
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Grey for sure but the White was more powerful still don't know if he could destroy an entire fortress with his own power.

Old Post Mar 24th, 2014 09:45 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Galadriel>Glorfindel, she was said to be the mightiest of the elves of the Third age.
Glorfindel=Gandalf(spiritual power), Glorifindel was capable of scarring the WK twice while Gandalf was very worried about him(almost afraid)


Keep in mind that Glorfindel has Maiar-like power according to Tolkien himself, and he is so powerful that the idea of him accompanying the Nine would make stealth impossible.


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Old Post Mar 24th, 2014 09:49 PM
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themadsurfer
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Keep in mind that Glorfindel has Maiar-like power according to Tolkien himself, and he is so powerful that the idea of him accompanying the Nine would make stealth impossible.


Keep in mind that Tolkien said that Galadriel was the mightiest elf in the Third Age. Finrod her brother who wasn't as powerful as her could stand against Sauron in a "power" match. Glorfindel was enhanced, true, but he still can't overcame her power. She also learned a lot with a Maiar much more powerful than Gandalf which was Melian.
Only being a Maiar doesn't mean that you're more powerful than even the most powerful elves or do you think that Glorfindel would have the power to break a fortress or make freaking powerful artifacts like the Silmarills.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 04:24 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Keep in mind that Tolkien said that Galadriel was the mightiest elf in the Third Age.


True.

quote:
Finrod her brother who wasn't as powerful as her could stand against Sauron in a "power" match.


This is misleading. Finrod lost. Also, employing more Silmarillion absolute statements, he was the 'wisest of the Noldor' and yet Sauron had the mastery.

quote:
Glorfindel was enhanced, true, but he still can't overcame her power.


I'm not entirely sure the gap, if any, is as wide as you suggest. Glorfindel is explicitly full of angelic Maiar like power, and made the Nine pretty much flee from him every time. Alone among the elves of Rivendell he was unafraid of the Nine, and with good reason. This puts him well above Gandalf the White in personal power.

quote:
She also learned a lot with a Maiar much more powerful than Gandalf which was Melian.


But we don't know what, if anything, she learned from Melian. At least, not specifically. If you're speaking of say, power used in personal combat, Glorfindel actually has significant combat experience (Gondolin, Angmar, the Nine). Comparatively, Melian is known for her defensive Girdle, and her maintaining of the beauty and wonder of her personal realm. In this, Galadriel and her are kin. But neither has really "blown away" an opponent, which is a pre-requisite I consider for measuring power. Otherwise, you're measuring something else like 'wisdom' or 'esoteric knowledge' in which Galadriel may be superior.

quote:
Only being a Maiar doesn't mean that you're more powerful than even the most powerful elves or do you think that Glorfindel would have the power to break a fortress


Actually, this feat is being taken out of context. Galadriel "threw down the gates" but lead a coalition of Lorien elves and the White Council, and we know almost no details of the attack/siege if any, took place. We know Sauron fled, and technically the tower stood until the War of the Ring. I'm not even sure if it was occupied by the Council or if they just made sure Sauron and the Nine tucked tail and ran. It's entirely possible she used elf magic to throw down the literal gates, and they looked inside and saw a "Gotta run, sorry folks!" note from Sauron.

quote:
or make freaking powerful artifacts like the Silmarills.


This is unrealistic, given that none of the Valar could replicate this as well, and their personal power was much greater than Feanor's. A unique creative talent is not in itself representative of absolute personal power.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 05:03 AM
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ares834
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I'd say Gandalf is beyond Galadriel.

"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought before the seat of the Dark Lord.'"

In Letter 246 , Tolkien claims that he believes that the only being (while using the One Ring) in LotR capable of defeating Sauron is Gandalf. He goes on saying Galadriel's belief that she could do so was a "deceit" of the Ring.

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power."


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Last edited by ares834 on Mar 26th, 2014 at 05:56 AM

Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 05:46 AM
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Stealth Moose
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Gandalf unchained, absolutely. Gandalf the Grey? Even Gandalf the White? Not so sure. He's been limited.

But great use of sources.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 06:16 AM
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themadsurfer
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Finrod vs Sauron was a great power duel where he managed to held his owns against Sauron and while battling Tolkien said something like this: "Sauron was really powerful but Finrod's power was also immense..." - that indicates that he has enough power to give Sauron a hard time.
I'm talking about Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur after the Ring was destroyed: "They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed"
Turin defeated a Dragon that doesn't mean he was more powerful than him or when Sauron was defeated, so single combat is not a pre-requisite to measure power.
The Valar had the power to make a Silmarill but they lack the skill which was something Feanor had above anyone, and many Noldor were said to pass their masters (Maiar) in skill and maybe some in spiritual power since Feanor became ash after he died.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 09:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by themadsurfer
Finrod vs Sauron was a great power duel where he managed to held his owns against Sauron and while battling Tolkien said something like this: "Sauron was really powerful but Finrod's power was also immense..." - that indicates that he has enough power to give Sauron a hard time.


Finrod is a First Age elflord, and pretty wise. There's no disputing that. But this is kind of irrelevant given that it doesn't relate to the thread nor the original problem. In any case, his showing against Sauron has nothing to do with Galadriel.

quote:
I'm talking about Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur after the Ring was destroyed: "They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed"


Which could be figurative. The tower wasn't destroyed literally until the War of the Ring. And again, you have zero idea of the manner she used, how long it took, or whether or not she was aided by her retinue or the Council.

quote:
Turin defeated a Dragon that doesn't mean he was more powerful than him or when Sauron was defeated, so single combat is not a pre-requisite to measure power.


But it's a strong indicator. Turin's defeat of the dragon is not in itself raw power matched against raw power. Conversely, if two spiritually powerful beings like Maiar/Elves strive against each other, they use their innate magic among other things. It's a completely different scenario.

quote:
The Valar had the power to make a Silmarill


No they don't. That's a huge plot point for the Silmarillion. The light cannot be recreated, because it was unique to the two trees which are long dead. And the narrative says that no one had any clue how Feanor accomplished what he did.

quote:
but they lack the skill which was something Feanor had above anyone, and many Noldor were said to pass their masters (Maiar) in skill and maybe some in spiritual power since Feanor became ash after he died.


Feanor is an exception, since he is the strongest elf in Tolkien literature, explicitly.

The Noldor were excellent craftsmen and may have surpassed some Maiar, but it's telling that Sauron, a Maiar of Aule's order, specifically showed them the height of their craft with the Rings of Power.

In any case, I concede that Tolkien notes Galadriel as the strongest elf in the Third Age. I simply believe that in personal combat, Glorfindel is far more dangerous, because of how ridiculously pathetic the Nine were before him.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 09:57 PM
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What I'm trying to say hand-to-hand Glorfindel win, but Galadriel can win via Magical powers.
My statement about Galadriel destroying Dol Guldur is AFTER the war of the ring so Dol Guldur was literally destroyed since Celeborn started to live there.

Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 10:07 PM
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I misread you, sorry. You're right about Dol Guldur.


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Old Post Mar 26th, 2014 10:47 PM
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NemeBro
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Galadriel ****ing vaporized Dol Guldur. She brought a host of elves to manfight its defenders, but it was explicitly Galadriel herself who "threw down its walls and laid its pits bare".

Also, it's pretty funny how Feanor is apparently rivaled by Thingol. Also known as the guy who was thrown to the ground and beaten to death by some pissed off dwarven jewelers.

Also:

"In his final stand, the Witch-King sat upon his black horse before us... As we rode forward, he realized that all hope is lost... His terrifying scream of rage sent the chills of winter to our spines as he turned and fled into the shadows... Earnur struck out to chase him down... But I then realized his power... We thought him as a powerful Black Númenórean but he was a Nazgûl... First of the nine and most fell of the servants of the Dark Lord Sauron... I put up my hand and call out for Earnur... Do not pursue him, he will not return to this land... Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
—Glorfindel, to Earnur

He had help when the Witch King fled from him, and he himself was of the point of view that he could not defeat him.

Calm down.


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Old Post Mar 27th, 2014 07:33 PM
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Feanor is stronger than Fingolfin. Ur mad bro.

Also, nothing says Glorfindel couldn't hang with the Witch-king given that he scared the guy off alone looking for the Ring.

You calm down.


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Old Post Mar 27th, 2014 08:37 PM
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