Yeah, and he was complaining because a character was nerfed and a certain move was now rather pointless to use. To which I said "learn to fight better maybe?", as in, adapt to the game rather than complain about the changes. There are multiple moves and characters available so how big a deal is one nerfed move? If people are as good as they say, then one single move shouldn't be a big problem unless they spam that move to win.
I really must agree with this. All the analysis that goes into playing "competitively" just sucks the fun out of playing a game. I just chill and enjoy it.
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I forgot to add though, a game like Soul Calibur where you have big guys like Nightmare and Siegfried killing people in 2-3 hits, and weak guys like Raphael that take ages to do any damage, nerfing is kinda pointless to argue.
its not about spamming it, its about having it to use as a tool for your strategy... because that moves properties have changed so much, he'll now have to change the times when he can actually make that move useful, as its not probably not good for certain situations.. its more like being annoyed rather than complaining, because I'm sure he's still playing mitsurugi regardless.. he's just voicing his opinion on his favorite character.. thats all
I understand your complaints (or annoyances) but there are plenty of moves to use, they might have nerfed a couple but maybe they buffed a couple as well?
Since you're a competitive player, how do you play? Like...do you try and get 14 hit combos and kill your opponent without taking any damage?
Sure it does, but SC4 is a newer version than before on a newer generation of consoles, so you'd expect there to be some changes to keep it from being the same game over and over with better graphics. I'm sure the developers had plenty of play testing to decide what to nerf, and with the Star Wars bonus characters, who do you think they were marketing the game for, serious competitive fighting fans or casual gamers?
See for me, Im not a fighting expert, but Im not a noob spammer either. I learn a few moves and try to mix them up. I've seen guys play SF3: Third Strike at the arcade and they spend hours learning how to do complex 20hit combos and crap, I put $1 in the machine and played through single player without losing a single round, and I dont need to learn those complex moves. So I dont see the point of complaining about nerfs and such when there are other ways of playing a character. If it was a constantly updated game like WoW that gets nerfed all the time unexpectedly then sure, complain. But SC4 is a whole new game built from a whole new engine.
Last edited by Hazardous on Sep 7th, 2008 at 03:13 AM
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It's usually a good idea to make it for a bit of both.
Changes are expected, still doesn't change the fact that unnecessary nerfing is bad from a competitive gaming point of view. The concept of "Well a move is shit now but there's plenty of other new good ones" does not hold much water for strategies and competition. In a game where entire combos are depend on one move having the characteristics that it does, changing the move can screw someone's entire strategy on a character. It is simply irritating. As far as I can tell that is all JustFrame was saying. I don't see what the problem is.
Umm...because the competitive players are complaining about nerfs?
Nerfs that were apparently decided worth doing by the developers when they made the game.
Stay with me, try not to get lost here:
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You: "The concept of "Well a move is shit now but there's plenty of other new good ones" does not hold much water for strategies and competition. In a game where entire combos are depend on one move having the characteristics that it does, changing the move can screw someone's entire strategy on a character. It is simply irritating."
Me: "adapt to the game"
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People complaining about nerfs are people expecting SC4 to play exactly like SC3, SC2 etc. SC4 is a whole new game, it will require whole new strategies and combo methods. If competitive players are as good as they say they are, then they should be adapting to play the game from scratch to prove how good they are, otherwise they come across as crybabies because a move they used frequently was nerfed. Not directed at anyone in here, just a general statement. Who sucks more, developers who nerfed a move, or the competitive gamer who cant change strategies?
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Are you... are you serious? All of my friends are casual players and even they have commented on how some characters have been nerfed, and how broken some of the people (Yoda) are. There are many novice or non-competitve gamers who take notice of this stuff. Just because the game developers put something in a game doesn't make it good.
No shit.
Erm... no it won't. Considering there are many elements within the game are relatively the same.
And how do you know they're not? Perhaps they are, but complain anyway. It's like telling a body builder to lift more weights when he complains about a weight being really heavy.
Don't see the relevance considering no one has said they can't or won't adapt or change strategies.
Nightmare and Sieg would be freaks of nature if they could kill in 2-3 Hits, however they are toned down for the fact that they are slower and can be GI, SS or what not, they do not have any over priority moves that leave them with huge frame advantages on hit or block(look to X back in the past for that).
You play Nightmare and Sieg, you have to take care of your positioning and for Sieg, and your stances...they aren't mindless 2-3 hit killers.
Game Developers don't always know what they are doing. Let me set an example for you...
Tekken 5 5.0 Nina to Tekken 5 5.1 Nina...
Her d/f+1,2 was good in 5.0...however it was nerfed in 5.1 to being made nearly absolutely useless. It had been the same since well...Nina had been in Tekken, and it was a good poke for her since she was an 8-Framer. D/F+1,2 was good in 5.0 for Nina, and one of her strong points, but it was not an over the top reason why she was such a monster in the game (tech catching with u/f+1, DC, insanely easy juggle carries, etc, etc where all much more powerful and where deserving of being toned down)
Street Fighter 2 CE Bison crounching Fp to SF2 HF Bison crounching FP...
In CE, Bison had not true AA, and his C.fp was his biggest AA move in the game, yet in HF, it was nerfed to such proportions that it was almost unusable as an AA.
I would post 2034982309428 more reasons, but let me put it this way...Game Developers don't always know what to nerf and will at times, and alot of times, nerf the wrong moves that didn't need to be nerfed. Meaning, they are not perfect.
This isn't about adapting to the game, this is about why nerf such a move that doesn't need the necessary nerf in the first place? There's a difference between pointless complaints to stating something that actually holds water here.
2K was not a JFLS from T4 Jin, nor was it a 311* from 5.0 Steve, nor was it like Mitsu's Godly KB2 from SC2. Obviously I have adapted, because instead of utilizing 2K, I now have to go the full 2KB instead (2KB was always good, but the properties of 2K made it faster which was slightly safer and less linear), however it doesn't leave the Mitsu player scratching their heads.
Honestly...I would not have wanted SC4 to play anything like SC3, since it was the absolute worst SC game in existence, however their is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing some aspects from older SC games back into the SC4 gameplay.
Because if you have good implements from the first one...why not keep them? It makes perfect sense, and has always been the case for most fighting games.
Lastly, I want to know when I came off as a crybaby? All I said was...why nerf 2K? What real reason was their behind it? Lastly, even with 2K nerfed, good Mitsu players know that Mist Steps are still solid, they know that his 33K and 66K are still very good. They know that his 4K is still good, etc etc...however I'm sure you would know too right...since your a Mitsu player?
Honestly, lets not start calling players "crybabies" unless you've played them first hand. I seem to feel that I've had a greater deal of experience at the competitive/tournament play of SC then you have judging by your comments.
I don't play online, and when I do, I do not take it seriously, face to face competition is where it's at, and will always be where it's at. I also lol, because when I first made the 2K comment...didn't I say that Mitsurugi was still good? Lol, funny how people take things when they don't read the whole more correctly.
Lastly, please don't ride on Game Developers, they don't always know what to do, and they will always nerf the biggest complaints from alot general players.
Kind of like how they went on and completely destroyed Jin from T4 to T5..but seemingly let Nina and Steve fly under the radar who where completely unnerfed going into T5. Let's also not forget that it took Namco 3 versions of Soul Calibur before Xianghua is considered not a Top-Tier character.
In fact, you want to know who finds all the + Frame advantages, - Frame Advantages on hit and block and what works and what doesn't while putting it down into book for the Game Developers...competitive players.
Mhmm.... *thinks of Smash : Brawl*.... damn you, Sakurai...
*grits teeth in a fit of rage as flames burst forth from the depths* (please log in to view the image)
though, I can't really consider brawl a "not knowing" moment... as Sakurai intentionally did whatever he thought would destroy brawl's competitive level play
After the SC:IV patch, I was running through the SC forum and found this tier list, although I don't neccessarily agree with everything on here, it's a decent tier listing atm of SC:IV. Remember, everything here is subject to and will most likely change, so don't start crying if your character isn't where you think he/she should be...however some characters are quite obvious, Rock for example, is just simply not that great of a character.
Setsuka has one of the best lows in the game, and her throw game is very good, in fact going back to her low game, imo it's as good as Mitsurugi's low game in SCIV. Her high damage options so far seem to be very safe, and she has a very good punishing game to boot.
With the abilities to patch fighting games, SCIV may "possibly" become the most balanced SC game, however I hope that Namco doesn't do 203948230948230 patches, and will keep one for us to play for a long time...I'll get annoyed if things change every 2-3 months for the next few years of SCIV's life.
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Sep 6th, 2008 01:42 AM
