I din't deny that Grimlock was one of the strongest, it just so happens that he's not as high on the list as Galvatron is.
esertion of the inobots part one, Megs an Skywarp shot at, and blew up that passenger aircraft an it knocked the Dinobots into Stasis lock instantly, blowing off limbs and all sorts of shit.
sorry, no ice, since he has done it more than once, he also destroyed Web World.
Galvatron was already introduced to the viewers by that point.
Losing all his matches is via plot conveniance, since the bad guy always loses in 80's cartoons.
Of course they have. In one scene you can see Wheeljack getting shot down by a single blast, the next they're all blasting at each other back and forth to no effect. You can't judge the characters on the cartoons because that's like judging X-Men on the movies.
Grimlock actually is stronger, but I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.
Yes because that was what they needed to do to hurry along the plot. In one episode Megatron is incapacitated by rust. You can't judge off a plot device. They've withstood much more than aircraft blasts.
Think about what you're suggesting. If this wasn't a hype tactic, which it is, why on Earth doesn't he do it all the time to finish off the Autobots? Why, in Grimlock's New Brain, doesn't he just kill Grimlock before he can create Computron? Oh, because it's just something they use to move the plot along, like the Dinobot aircraft blast.
It's not to be taken as canon.
You're judging him off momentary plot devices, though. It's ridiculous, those aren't to be judged off.
How many times did we see Prowl, Ironhide etc get into firefights with the Decepticons? There's nobody who'd have said "Scavenger is better than Prowl.", but would you be prepared to say that just because they used Scavenger to kill him off in TF: The Movie? No, because it's silly. Prowl was one of the best Autobot warriors, and he was only killed to further a plot device, not because his opponent was actually better than him.
Everything is via plot convenience that you've just used to put your point across, though.
I'm not going into quote battles again today (I've had more than 5 already), the reason why I sided with Galvatron over Grimlock this time, is that Galvatron has ha consistantly better feats more often than Grimlock has. You can't dism,iss every feat Galvatron has as mere plot conveniance, otherwise nothing at all can be taken as cannon in the cartoon, even if the toon is the one we're supposed to be basing it from.
you want to disreguard everything Galvatron has done as plot device or PIS, while you allow everything Grimlock has in is very one sided.
Not to mention that out of 3 threads involving our ol'e Dino buddy, this is the only one I can't see him winning in a straight fight, an I've state my reasons, so I'm not bias.
You can't actually take anything as cannon from the cartoon, not concerning combat abilities anyway, because everything is always down to convenience and plot.
Everything everyone does is a device, anything of note anyway, hence why it's stupid to base any fight off cartoons. You don't see people in the comics forum using the X-Men series as base for why someone would win a fight.
It doesn't matter. You see him winning because of Galvatron's plot devices, in the comics he's not the one who's going to win.
Well it took the Dinobots might combined to merely knock Megs off of a cliff in the comic,
after Ratchet arranged the ambush in order to reclaim the ark and the Autobots. And Galvatron beats Megs..... So my money is on Galvatron.
Also the combined might of the Dinobots was barely enough to defeat Shockwave too, and my money'd be on Galvatron between the two.
Read also 'target 2006' for another indicator of Galvatron's effectiveness against pre-movie G1 TFs.
But one things for sure, It's a fight I'd love to see.
__________________
"Van Zan is the Pinocchio of feces." - Lestov16
Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Aug 2nd, 2007 at 10:21 AM
There were a lot of contradictions with plot devices in the comics too, but toward the end Grimlock was generally portrayed as this out of control, mega-powerful maniac.
Grimlock has more power than more or less any Transformer that isn't a gesalt or base. Galvatron isn't exactly of stable mind enough to beat him, Megatron maybe, cos he's smarter.
But Grimlock likewise lacked the power to destroy Galvatron too.
In anycase, Galvatron at least in comic form, mad or not was ridiculous power that even as unstable as he was, still managed to tear new ones for all he encountered, more or less. Magnus was just lucky with that volcano thing...
It's no different in the comics... A lot of realism has to be sacrificed for plot, but you've tried to tear down EVERY avantage one person has, while giving the other all of his avantages, an based off of that, claime the win... thats very shitty debating tactics.
An I've only ever debated the toons since thats what I'm most familar with (Exept from some of the recent reamwave comics).
Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....
This isn't the Comic's forum for starters... two, since it isn't the Comics vs, and it wasn't stipulated which medium we where debating, it was well and truly open to interpretation, meaning I can use whatever medium I am most comfortable with, you don't like it, don't debate with me.
In the comics, he has just as many plot devices as he does in the Comics... and Grimlock gets owned by Starscream's null rays...
I have just made a case in two sentences... this is not one sided, nor is it remotely a curbstomp, I think Galvatron takes the majority.
I'm not giving anyone advantages, I'm saying it's stupid to base anything at ALL on the toons.
And why are you saying that? Because one person has said it? Are you a sheep or something? I'd say go and read for yourself, but you do appear to be biased.
Galvatron, for all his power (Like anybody.), couldn't get the job done, hence why the comics went on. So it's stupid to assume he's going to get some squash win over someone as powerful as Grimlock, arguably the most powerful Autobot.
Galvatron isn't connected to Unicron anymore anyway, that ended after he was destroyed. Furthermore, if you WANT to go by the toons, he lost a fist fight to Rodimus, so much for the invulnerability.
Then you must accept that it's stupid to debate the cartoons because there are too many things done to cater to plot. It's impossible to gauge who would win because they both succumb to stupid things (Fist fights and exploding planes.), and then have the power to do such things as destroy planets and in Grimlock's case, floor Megatron with a breath blast. It's pointless.
And do you want to count how many times Grimlock has stood up to worse than null rays? Exactly.
Britney Spears would take the majority over a lot of music I like, it doesn't make her better.
You're essentially judging on personal bias, and to be fair, we probably all are, because there's simply not enough set ability to go by.
Thats your choice, but the minute you try and push that up in my face, I'm going to have something to say about it.
#1: It was written in Dreamwave's character profile listings under Galvatron's powers, it was also listed in Galvatron's profile for both the comic and the movie.
#2: Excuse me... di dI say curbstomp? I never claimed that EVER... Do not put words in my mouth... I did say Galvatron takes the majority based on his abilities, and I also said this in relation to the Toons, not the comics. It's also stupi to assume that Grimlock would win over someone who has emonstrated far more destructive capability than anything the Dinobot has ever faced.
#3: The invulnerability Unicron granted him was only covered in the comics Alpha, read what I say before you go assuming anything...
Do you read? And who are you to determine what other people are allowed to debate?
Excuse me, but you have to take the goo with the bad, you and I debate two different forms of medium... so why your debating with me is beyond me... in Grimlocks defence, I sai in that threa thatGrimlock would easily take the majority over Starscream, but then again, so does Galvatron.
........... I'm not going by A Populem..........
You on't know what I mean by "Taking the Majority" o you?
What it means is out of 10 encounters, who would win the majority of the time.
You did actually use the phrase "Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp.".
Regarding this whole battle, it appears we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I have a lot that suggests Grimlock would win, if we really want to go by the toons as you say, and you have that which causes you to believe otherwise, all fair enough.
It didn't stick.
I'm not telling anybody anything, besides suggesting that you accept how hard it is to debate the toons, simply because of all the plot devices and errors.
Starscream was never that great a warrior in the first place, he gets lucky with his null ray now and then.
You effectively stipulated "Depate the comics or nothing at all"
Thats tantamount to pushing your beleif onto me, or forcing me to conform to your methodology, and I don't agree with that.
You asked me where I got my information, and I've already said, I'm not as familair with the OLDER comics as I am with Dreamwave and IDW comic lines. those profiles are from both Dreamwave, an the early comics.
did I?..........
Where?
I can separate the comics from the toons, I beleive that the toons give Galvy the majority. I'm not as familiar with the older Marvel comics so I cannot effectively debate them.
It doesn't need to, since we don't know what form of Galvatron we are debating here, the OP is remarkably vague with respect to what versions of the characters we are using or what meium takes the highest priority.
I simply on't like it when someone suggest that EVERYTHING is plot device.
Well, he is the Aerospace Operations Commaner an 2nd in command of the Decepticons for a reason.
Because it's less pointless. If you want to debate the cartoons, fine, but then seeing as everything was essentially plot device, it's going to be stupid.
They are just profiles, all profiles say things the robots are not necessarily proven to be capable of.
"Butuner that mentality I can easily say that Galvatron wins with a massive curbstomp in relation to the comics, due to Galvatron's invulnerability by being connected to Unicron....".
You believe that based on plot devices, and there are plot devices suggesting Grimlock would win, suggesting that anybody could do anything, really.
True. He wasn't endlessly invulnerable in the toons either.
It was, though.
He's not 2nd in command, Shockwave is. He is classified as a Decepticon commander, Starscream isn't, he's a commander of a group, not the whole group.
And yeah, the reason he's called that is to give him distinction, you read too much into things.
It's only "All Plot evice" accoring to you though, not to me.
Again, it's your oppinion, Dreamwave use those profiles as templates when they made their comics.
An the movie profiles where taken irectly from the old UK comics.
That was in response to you throwing away every cartoon feat he's done, so I checked the Comic capabilities.
Not at all, you've taken every conceivabl;e feat and overplayed their part as simply plot devices... nevertheless Cartoon base Galvatron wins over cartoon Grimlock, do you dispute this?
The invulnerability was only really covered in the Comic I think... the Toons however did show that the only injuries Galvatron ever sustained in the Movie, was those inflicted by Unicron himself (The one who has control over Galvatron's invulnerability anyway). Galvatron wasn't nessisarily injured by Rodimus when he lost that fistfight, because even when Hotrod hit him directly with the forarm blasters, Galvatron had no injuries.
That requires proof, Inconcistancy I can easily agree with and support, but plot device? no...
On Earth, he was 2nd in command... and even Shockwave ha to bow to him, when he thought Megs was dead and Starscream was right there.
Shockwaves titles include Decepticon Strategist and Military Operations Commander... But when Megs and his bunch reactivate on Earth, Starscream was 2nd in command... Are you disputing this?
Well, you're clearly wrong, aren't you? Things happen according to plot. If the Dinobots didn't get blown up by the plane, that episode wouldn't exist. If Rodimus didn't beat Galvatron in a fist fight, he'd not have ended up in the plasma bath and continued into series 3. These areas of weakness are plot device to make things happen. It's fact.
It's not my opinion, jesus. It says on a few Megatron profiles that he can link with black holes, it says Thundercracker can make loud noises, that Skywarp can warp (Happens all of...twice?).
Stop going by what you find on the net, pick up a comic for crying out loud.
That ANYBODY has done, because it's all based on plot devices. Your denial of this is irrelevant.
They are plot devices. If they're not, and we are to take them seriously, then Galvatron got BEAT UP by Rodimus, who isn't equal to Grimlock in strength. Grimlock floored Megatron with one blast, however.
You are reading too much into the show, Zero. It didn't exactly bother with details did it?
Why are you assuming that Galvatron was immune thanks to Unicron? Simply because he didn't happen to sustain any injuries? It doesn't mean he couldn't. There were far too many contradicting combat circumstances to take ANYTHING that happened to ANYBODY as canon. Megatron threw a STICK at Prime in the movie and it pierced him, he fatally wounded him with a pistol-like blaster. On the Dinobot Island episode Prime takes the full force of his fusion cannon and says "I'm ok.". You can't judge by that shit.
I cannot compensate for ignorance. The contradictions are all there, you ignoring them is not something I can change.
Because he was crowned LEADER by himself, it was what was MEANT TO HAPPEN IN THE PLOT. Shockwave was in command of Cybertron itself when Megatron wasn't around, even in the comics. He's never been 2nd in command, except maybe of Earth forces, not the entire Decepticon ranks, that actually goes to Shockwave, just like the Autobots second in command was always Prowl, despite naive fans thinking it was Ironhide or Jazz just because they were more liked and featured.
You are getting this from profiles which HAVE to give everyone a "title" though. In the comics and in the series, as well as among the fans, he is considered a Decepticon commander above Starscream.
Comics:
"Dreamwave Productions:
Shockwave was a major character in the Dreamwave Productions' 21st Century re-imagining of G1. As a major player in the Decepticon army in Cybertron's past, he led the main attack on the Autobots' stronghold shortly after the appointment of Optimus Prime, and personally destroyed two Omega Sentinels with one blast in space gun mode. There was also tension between him and Starscream about who would lead the Decepticons after Megatron's supposed death, which eventually led to the creation of multiple splinter factions within both the Autobots and Decepticons. While Starscream created his own faction, the 'Predacons,' Shockwave led the Decepticons through the 'Dark Ages' of Cybertron, during which his logic allowed him to put aside differences with Jetfire and the Autobots in order to defeat the greater evil of The Fallen. As the Dark Ages came to an end, Shockwave was ready to sign a peace treaty with Ratbat's Ultracons and the Autobots, but the return of Megatron derailed the plan, though the Quintesson-created clones he brought back to the planet with him greatly intrigued Shockwave.
Shockwave was left behind on Cybertron while Megatron's forces pursued Optimus Prime and were subsequently lost on Earth for four million years, and became Decepticon leader on the planet.
Megatron is at the center of the Decepticon movement, leading with an iron fist and the use of violence against any Decepticon who dares to question Megatron's leadership. However, not all Decepticons follow Megatron. One of which, Shockwave, ultimately takes over when Megatron is presumed dead. ".
Not only does it explicitly state he is second only to Megatron, it clearly details that when he faced off against Starscream, HE was the one left leading the Decepticons while Starscream was forced to go and make his own group.
Animated Series:
"As the Decepticons' military operations commander, Shockwave's power is second only to Megatron's, and even that is disputed. His actions are carried out with the cold, brutal clarity and perfection one would expect of a purely mechanical being — his way is not that of blood lust, like so many other Decepticons, but rather that of a scientist attempting to solve a problem. And that problem is: how can he use his abilities to most effectively eliminate the greatest number of enemies? Unfortunately for the Autobots, it is rare that Shockwave will not find a suitable answer.".
Not sure what more you want. Starscream is more famed and iconic, he isn't higher in rank. He was only ever the liutenant of Earth Decepticons forces, not Decepticons in general. He isn't as smart, as clinical or as powerful as Shockwave.
Again, why am I clearly wrong? An who's to say the inobots wouln'thave esserted AFTER they Won that battle?? you've assumed something. there are many other ways of writing an episode.
............ Your not listening.............
Those capabilities are no less canon and official.
I love how you automatically assume that I'm yanking my info off the net..... Please find a new line, cause that ones ol as hell
Proof?
Rodimus had JUST received a huge injection of matrix energy, THAT and THAT ALONE is a plot device. the matrix is the single biggest plot device ever create, along the lines of Green Laterns Ring, The Triforce, an the Infinity Gauntlet.
I didn't deny that, but I'm not the one willing to toss everything am I?
Not so, it's an 80's cartoon catered for kids bro.
Correctin, he threw the stick, it peirced, followe by a lightsaber strike to the same area, followe by 3 blasts from said pistol into the same wound, one to the arm, and one to the faceplate. thats a sustained assault, not a one hit wonder.
I can still say it's your oppinion until you give me one that CANNOT be explained.
......................................................... No comment, since I've already said that Starscream was 2nd only on earth.
I AM the one going by what's there and what is known of the series. You are going by "If this happened, this is possible.", anything is clearly possible in that series. Galvatron Vs Grimlock, then, is an endless debate.
If they've never actually done them, ever, why are you assuming they'd do so in battle? That's illogical.
When you stop referencing to profiles and alluding to such, I'll stop assuming such.
Proof of what? That it's all based on plot devices? The fact that these things have to happen for the plot and story to happen. You only say "What If?" when it suits you.
He was reformatted, no different to Megatron into Galvatron. We have no reason to believe the fight was any greater in favour of Rodimus, power wise. True, though, it was a moment that happened because it needed to in the story. Just like everything else.
Exactly, that's why you are clinging to your theories, you don't see that they are all situation based scenarios.
Really? No...really?
First, let's not over look the fact that you just said "He thre the STICK, it PIERCED.". A stick pierced Optimus Prime, yet Megatron's fusion cannon didn't, yet his pistol did.
You are assuming the specification of the blasts, where they hit and how, mostly. You have no officiality there.
Either way, it's no different. Dinobot Island AGAIN, the Decepticons had all the Autobots pinned down under a laser assault and they were just laying there without a scratch on them. It's ALL plot device. If lasers were able to penetrate as easily as they did (Shuttle hijack? Prowl was killed in a single shot, and others in not much more.) then most of them would have been dead in this scene, but they weren't.
I'm giving you all the proof you could need, you are ignoring it and creating ways you can justify it. "He fired the pistol in specific places.", bs. They were too careless to properly animate the show, you think they'd actually make note of where he's being shot?
I said this too, yet you continued the debate rather than agreeing.
Shockwave was commander on Earth in the Marvel run.
He ambushed and messed both sides up, decapitated Prime(keeping the head seperate, but operational), trashed and usurped Megatron replacing him as commander of the Decepticons... He used the matrix (pure energy in the comic) taken from the bodyless Prime's mind to give life to the newly constructed Constructicons. He also built Jetfire/Skyfire.
His leadership remained for quite a while...
__________________
"Van Zan is the Pinocchio of feces." - Lestov16
Last edited by Sadako of Girth on Aug 4th, 2007 at 11:05 AM
No, you just said that if the Dinobots were not destroyed, then the episodes couldn't continue, I just demonstrated how wrong you are.
Because it's still an official capability, despite your objection.
I am allowed to reference profiles as long as they are official.... you can assume as much as you like, and I'll keep correcting you.
Then the comics are just as guilty of suffering ploit damage as the cartoon.
It was very different... foir one, it's two entirely different sources of reformatting... two Unicron actually amped Galvatron. while the Matrix gave Rodimus Prime a massive power boost, and made him effectively invulnerable to Galvatron's blasts...
I'll say it again, if this is true, then the Comics are just as guilty and should also be thrown out with equal contempt.
Yes.... Really...... your apparently ignoring the obvious.
Well, that particular "Stick" was a very sharp peice of metal, thrown at a fairly high velocity.
My oficiality is observation of the movie, one can clearly see where Megs's shots hit Prime.
I can easily lay claim to low powered shots due to Megs saying "I want to savour this moment" meaning he wanted it to last...
BS is it?... And we are talking about a scene that happened in the MOVIE... they did put more effort into it... Now who's making excuses...
I was explaining myself... you continued to debate.
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Aug 1st, 2007 12:30 AM
