Well not its not. Hes been able to read Ozys minds. He has used his mind to psionically punk Jean Grey
I dunno man im pretty sure ive seen some cases were mind blasts do make sound effects.
Mind blasts usually are shown as energy around the persons head and also it did not seem to do any physical damage. It was also not seen emanting like a regular blast from Apoc like Cyclops optic blasts and just appeared around Xaviers head.
His head was thrown back and he was helpless when he got hit. You dont neccesarily have to be Koed. Also Apoc wasnt even trying.
Ok we dont know for certain but if I were going up against Apoc I would defend myself because im not sure what Apoc would come up with.
It would make her powerful though wouldnt it?
Ok. I'll look into it, from what I know Nate was ****ing his pants.
Well this is the thing. Apoc gets amped by Celestial tech. If Ikaris is prime that means its a great feat for Apoc because obvously it would take a great deal of force to stab.
If Luke Cage gets stabbed hes not an idiot it means that the person who has managed to stabed him is powerful.
I dont see how that changes anything. Apoc has Celestial tech so im assuming that this is the reason why he was able to stab Ikaris. Regardless of wether he is Prime or not being stabbed in the hurt would still hurt alot, it wouldnt kill him but it would still hurt.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
TricksterPriest often posts his list of "high end telepathic feats" from Apocalypse. Most of them don't actually involve active telepathy, including the Jean Grey incident. In it he refers to her power in a tone that indicates he doesn't have it/will have to prepare for it in future - it is something novel to him. The event shows strong mental defenses definitely. It doesn't really show active telepathic ability. Additionally in Search for Cyclops Jean holds Apocalypse telepathically and ejects him from Scott's body.
So the single instance must make her > Apocalypse... but then the other single instance must make Apocalypse > Xavier.... but then Xavier's feats make him > Jean sans Phoenix...
Apocalypse lacks the feats to be considered a first order telepath.
The panel is small. Psiblasts generally do not make noise as far as I'm aware. I didn't say it conclusively wasn't a telepathic attack, but then I'm not completely convinced that it was.
Emma is a first order psi, with many feats to verify her telepathic prowess. She is not more powerful than Nate, though, not even equal to him - much as I love 'er.
The incident with Emma and Nate is merely intended to show that telepaths are not immune to telepathy themselves. Nor are they constantly defending against telepathic attack. Nor does hurting a telepath with a telepathic sucker punch indicate that the one who did so is necessarily powerful, equal in power to, or superior to the telepath who was hurt.
The Prime Eternal is intended to be around Skyfather level; Zuras as the Prime Eternal stalemated Zeus. That Ikaris was downed by being stabbed when Sersi who isn't the Prime Eternal has done so much more, tells me he was badly written.
Ok but im pretty sure he reads Ozy's mind, so this indicates that he does have mental powers and if he has a strong mind his mental powers should be greater than Jeans.
Considering that he resisted Jean in a weakened state, theres no way Jean should be able to eject Apoc like that.
Fair enough but I think it was given the reasons.
Ok agreed but it seems to me that you would still need to be powerful to hurt a strong psionic.
Yes I understand but my logic is that it was not a convetional stabbing.
Odin and Zeus are very powerful but if they were to get stabbed in the heart it would hurt alot, but for them to be stabbed in the first place it would take something very powerful.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
There isn't anything to suggest that it was anything besides a straightforward physical attack. He wasn't stabbed through the heart, he was stabbed through the abdomen afaik - a wound an Eternal, let alone the Prime Eternal, should be able to regenerate from without a deal of difficulty.
In any event none of the above really makes Apocalypse any sort of threat to a Celestial...
I guess its like The Asargadian Destroyer cutting of a Celestials arm. Sure he cut it off but it didnt mean a damn thing because The Celestial regenerated with a minimum of fuss.
Well this the thing I agree he should be able to regenerate and all fairness he wasnt down long, I still think it would hurt because the force needed to penetrate him must have been alot.
I think we could at least say that despite the stabbing incident that Apoc can give Ikaris a good fight.
Well ok heres my logic. I think Apoc still has mental powers strong enough to rival Prof X due to the reasons given.
Now from my understanding Onslaught is a combo of Prox and Magneto, gaining a mind like Apoc would make him really powerful like when he aborbed Nates mind. Ok I dont know if his mind is as strong as Nates but Nate seemed to be scared of Apoc.
Apparently when Onslaught merged with Nate and Franklin he became more powerful than a Clestial. Im hoping that Apoc will be my Nate and Odin with reality gem and Korvac will be my Franklin Richards.
Korvac by the way is powerful enough to stop an alien race from existing by waving his hands. He would be a great asset because apparently Onslaught used Franklins reality warping powers.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
I believe that the realty gem is dangerous to use if not accompanied by the other gems and some one of Dr. Strange level was able to defeat each gem individualy.
This battle still goes to the one Celestial and the only ones that he needs to worry about are Odin and Korvac. Onslaught has never been more powerful than a Celestial but has the potential to surpass them and as we all now that was never accomplished and Apocalypse isn't really going to change this outcome.
Alfheim if you already believe that Onslaught is already greater than the Celestials than this battle is pointless and why back him up with three other characters.
Onslaught was considered to be one of the most powerful Marvel Characters on Earth 616 itself, easily surpassing the Celestials due to Franklin Richard's power, who rivals the Celestials in potential, in addition to X-Man's and Onslaught's own powers combined with Franklin's.
thats not what I said. I said:
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Ok! I do get tired of hearing one of the most powerful, that is used to much and come on wikipedia!
That's the thing though when he merged with Nate and Franklin he didn't become more powerful than a celestial and nothing he did during his time showed him more powerful than the likes of Odin.
Which is why i said he has the potential and to me it seems as if he was using franklin powers with franklin's mental block since he did nothing that was extraordinary.
Last edited by Power16 on Jul 24th, 2007 at 01:30 PM
You know what I dunno about that people seem to think that Onslaught with Franklin and Nate was extremely powerfuln heel they guy created a second sun....that aint bad.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jul 24th, 2007 at 01:53 PM
Onslaught alone could do it. Korvac also if he would absorb enough power.
Odin with gem could also do it alone.
Apocalypse is a non factor. Yes, he has defeated PE Ikaris, who is very powerful, he was actually better than HE, was also clearly match for Loki, but non of them are on Celestial level.
No, not really. As joke as Apocalypse can be, if he shows sometimes some great feat or power level, even those who hate Apocalypse aren't surprised by what he has done, because they realize he should be like the always as he was intended in the first place.
Actually mostly the hate towards Apocalypse comes because he isn't written as what he should be.
But when he does something great, no one is surprised, all know it's within his capabilities.
For real? I guess that kinda makes sense. Korvac got his powers from draining Galactus's ship so its just a matter how much power he can get.
You serioulsy think Odin with reality gem could do it alone? Hmmm I know The Gardener took on The Stranger with a gem but I dont think Stranger is anywhere near Celestial level.
How could Onslaught do it alone?
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
The thing is though his mental powers don't rival Xavier's.
-He is shown to have strong mental defenses in one instance; in which he incidentally appears to find Jean Grey's telepathy a novelty. Of course this is contradicted by Jean in a another appearance telepathically holding him.
-He has one somewhat ambiguous instance of a telepathic sucker punch which really doesn't give any gauge whatsoever as to the level of telepathic power nor skill; as telepaths themselves are not immune to telepathy anyway nor do they constantly defend from telepathic attack. A psiblast is a relatively crude use of telepathy, any telepath from a random Morlock to Hector Hammond, would likely achieve the same or similar, were they to do the same thing.
Xavier has thrice harnessed mental energy on a planetary scale; to drive away the Z'nox, to attack Ego, the Living Planet, and to try and dissuade Galactus from consuming the Skrull throneworld.
He used to scan the cosmos for life before Magneto altered the Earth's magnetic fields to limit telepathic range. His telepathy has however traversed star systems.
They recently had him access the Universal Collective Unconsciousness.
His power spawned Onslaught, as well as a powerful Mummudrai, Cassandra Nova.
He battled Dark Phoenix on the Astral plane, and defeated her, albeit with the aid of Jean's good nature fighting to help him.
He was alongside Thanos and Adam Warlock fighting the Goddess, with his telepathy.
Until he does anything comparable to Xavier, then he doesn't rival Xavier.
I quite doubt that.
Depends upon how well he's allowed to wield the Reality Gem, and wield it in absence of the other Gems, in this thread.
Ikaris did nothing in that fight worthy of the title Prime Eternal. He barely did anything in that fight worthy of the species Eternal.
Onslaught power level goes beyond Celestial. Franklin Richards is equal to the Celestial, Onslaught had the total power of Franklin and under control.
He also had Magneto, Xavier and more importantly X-Man, who is extremely powerful.
Or is that actually because PE Ikaris couldn't and didn't do anything, because he couldn't, Apocalypse didn't allow it. Apocalypse was written well and crushed him.
He couldn't do anything to Apocalypse. And looking the past, that Apocalypse fought HE and Loki, is no surprise he fought another powerful cosmic being and actually defeat him.
In the fight with Loki, Loki hits his head and falls down. Caliban attacks him. He gets trapped in a machine. The machine is broken, and Loki leaves. That is a shitty depiction of Loki.
In the fight with Ikaris, Ikaris flies at Apocalypse and punches him, he is caught in Apocalypse's hold, for some reason forgetting that like all Eternals he has the ability to teleport, and is stabbed through the stomach, at which point he also forgets, like all Eternals, he has the ability to regenerate. All the while forgetting other Eternal abilities, oh and forgetting that he's the Prime Eternal. He suffocates in space, when Sersi has survived before in space unaided, iirc. And has to be rescued by the other Eternals. That is a shitty depiction of an Eternal, and it is an especially shitty depiction of the Prime Eternal.
It perhaps allowed an opening for controlling him as she did. An apt telepath however should have been able to counteract said control and avoid being ejected from a body.
Yes thats true, but what did I say afterwards? Apoc clearly has telepathic powers because he read Ozys mind.
Now I know that him resisting Jean could be just a strong mind, but my point is that if he has telepathic powers (which he does) AND his mind is stronger than Jeans than he must have stronger telepathic powers than Jean.
Isnt that PIS? How is it that Apoc in a weakened state resisted Jean then all of a sudden cant take her. Thats the very defintion of PIS. You know they call Apocalypse Jobercalypse.
Yes and you gave an example of Emma stunning Nate, but I got the impresssion that you agreed that she had to be powerful to hurt Nate. Also in my opinion that was a mindblast, if you dont think it was fine.
Ok let me summarise. Isnt Jean Grey almost as powerful as Xavier? If Apoc can resist her mind in a weakened state that shows he has a strong mind. Now we know that he has telepathic powers (reading Ozys mind), logic dictates that he must therefore have powers greater than Jeans.
Now if he has powers greater than Jean it implies to me that even if he is not stronger than Xavier he will give him a run for his money.
Didnt Apoc mind control the inhumans including a powerful psychic?
You are just basing that on the stabbing. Even if you think he should have regnerated from the stabbing quicker there is nothing to say that the rest of the fight was badly written. Its only badly written because you dont think Ikaris should have lost. Apoc has Celestial tech...AND Ikaris has stated that they have fought many times before, this therefore indicates that Apoc is on Ikaris's level.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
That's not particularly logical. You're somehow jumping from having the ability to read minds, or some other mild telepathy and also having strong psychic defenses (although again one should note that Apocalypse regards Jean's telepathy as a novelty - thus indicating he doesn't actually have telepathy at all in that feat), to somehow equating to being a formidable telepath.
Magneto has a strong mind, he has formidable psychic defenses and is a weak telepath.
Having formidable psychic defenses is one thing.
Having some telepathic ability is one thing.
One does not imply the level of the other.
All this coupled with the fact that Apocalypse has next to no telepathic feats, and certainly none that would put him at Xavier's level. Or even Jean's level. He has a psiblast. That's about it. Actually, no, that is it.
This: (please log in to view the image)
doesn't make Emma Frost a telekinetic.
I gave the example to show that a relatively inferior telepath can harm a superior telepath with a psiblast, not because they are particularly strong - although Emma may be a good telepath she is nowhere near Nate - but because telepaths are not themselves immune to telepathy.
Because as noted above, having strong telepathic ability does not mean one necessarily has strong passive mental defense. No vice versa.
Sans Phoenix, Jean never really had any feats that would put her near Xavier that I recall. See above - you're making a massive leap. The Jean incident doesn't imply telepathic ability stronger than Jean (it in fact implies no telepathic abilities) just strong mental defenses.No that's a misconception propagated by some, the Inhumans were brainwashed, technologically iirc, they were not actively mind-controlled via telepathic means.
I gave reasoning as to why the I find Ikaris written as an idiot. I see no problem with Apocalypse being on Ikaris, the ordinary Eternal's level, he is in no way on par with a Prime Eternal though - my only problem with the Ikaris fight is that whenever it's brought up it's generally stated as Apocalypse besting the Prime Eternal. Also why do people write "Apocalypse has Celestial Tech," as if it's supposed to be some standalone argument.
But did Ikaris even think about teleporting? He could have been trying to physically free himself from Apoc's bear hug. Anyway I believe Apoc stabbed him right away he got a hold of him, so he didn't have an moment to try teleporting....
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I think it's PIS. Because before this, he actually does resist Jean Grey and Cyclops' love bond...