Both of you are wrong. Dresta, what you say is true for the first half of their duel, however as soon as James started talking to Lilly and forgot about Snape, Snape got in a surprise attack of his own, the sectusumpra spell in fact, yet James just brushed it off, span around, and had Snape hanging up in the air, completely defenceless. The superiority there is obvious, and can't be attributed to him catching Snape off guard or overcoming him due to superior numbers. Spider, Snape, at Hogwarts, was notorious for his use of dark magic, and he even uses it in their duel!! The sectusumpra spell: dark magic.
You can hardly class James as superior due to him getting the better of Snape one time when they were 15. Snape missed his attack anyway, this may have been due to him realising the consequences at the last minute if he had hit James full on with that spell. Snape shows powers and ability's that we never saw from James, or any of the other Marauders for that matter.
Why not exactly? It's really quite obvious that James was far superior than James; let's compare: James catches Snape off guard, and successfully gets him with a number of curses, and all remain in effect for quite a while. Snape, on the other hand, catches him off guard, yet James is hardly even affected, and is immediately able to spin around and get Snape back, and go back to owning Snape. So really, it doesn't take a genius to work out the superior of the two here... Besides, there are a number of other accounts claiming that James was the most talented pupil of Hogwarts at the time, so really, it's not up to debate - James was simply much, much more talented than Snape.
What are you talking about? Snape got James right on the side of his face. He didn't miss.
I guess Fred and George Weasley are above them as well then, simply because they too have displayed unique magic. Don't be ridiculous, the fact that Snape simply invented a few spells doesn't make him any more talented than people like James, especially when the said James was capable of kicking his ass all over the place despite that little fact.
Do I have to tell you again? Voldemort COMPLEMENTED Snape. That alone should tell you that Snape was a very powerful wizard. He was the most powerful of the Death Eaters, and James really hadn't ever shown any powerful magic. Any of them could be holding back their powers during the duel, however we only see the full limits of one of them, which is Snape. And his feats are very impressing, his knowledge in magic is way above James's. Snape made potions for Lupin so he wouldn't become a werewolve, while James couldn't. And added to that Snape is one clever dude.
Snape acted harshly and without thinking back in school and I'm preety sure he didn't even fully understand how to use the spells he created correctly. Very few wizards can actually make up a spell, I think the only other one that was mentioned in the book was Voldemort who created his unforgivable curses and the killing curse.
Nmensfinest, I would like some manner of evidence that confirms James Potter's superiority over Severus Snape, and not one account of an altercation that occured when they were teenagers. While I'd have no problem agreeing that James was the superior duelist (at least as a teenager), your claim that he is a "much, much more talented than Snape" requires some sort of proof. In fact, the only ones who have made a big deal about James Potter's abilities as a wizard were his fellow Marauders, and it doesn't take Einstein to conclude that they are extraordinarily biased in his favor.
Meanwhile, we have accounts of Snape being an unnaturally gifted wizard, an unparalleled potions master, and gifted enough to invent surprisingly effective spells during high school. Spells that James and the Marauders deemed worthy enough to use on him, in their ignorance.
You misunderstood. I said that Voldemort's Death Eaters are more martial than the Order of the Phoenix by nature, not that every one of their number is a powerhouse. Referring to the debacle in the Ministry, the Death Eaters' hands were tied in that their goal was to recover the prophecy; furthermore, these 5th years had the advantage of being trained by Harry personally, who is -- as we know -- uncommonly gifted in defense against the dark arts. Lastly, they were soundly defeated and outmaneuvered -- and would have died had the Order not shown up. As for Voldemort's choice to try to persuade Neville to join the Death Eater ranks, at that point, Voldemort was going to have everyone join him or die. Lucius must be an abnormally skilled wizard, as at his peak, he was higher placed than Bellatrix or Snape.
What's the proof of that? They might fight more, but that doesn't necessarily mean their better at fighting.
Proof that their ranks are devised solely on power and skill? I doubt it, Lucius was probably put in charge instead of Bellatrix because Belltrix is reckless, you seem to have read book 5, remember that bellatrix kept losing her temper and kept almost smashing the prophecy, while Lucius remained cool and collect, hence why he lead the battle and not her. Naturally, Voldemort would have chosen the one who would best lead the Death Eaters to get the Prophecy, not the ebst fighter, and Lucius knows Potter as well, which would be another reason to have him lead. Voldemort's not a moron.
Says what? I have read book 7, and Voldemort goes for Moody first, and Kingsley second, so your wrong, he believes that Moody is more dangerous.
Correct. And Lucius got tossed down the stairs by Dobby, and got beated by Lupin in the Depatrment of Mysteries. Powerful though both of them are, I can't see either of them besting Bellatrix, especially seeing as Lupin was a protector in book 7 and Voldemort placed both Moody and Kingsley above him (and Bellatrix beat Moody). So Bellatrix > Kingsley > Lupin > Lucius.
What, when? In book 5 in the Pensieve he and Sirius had to double-team Snape to beat him, and I believe it was in book 3 that Snape told Harry that his father never would attack him without the help of two of three of his cronies.
Malfoy on par with or above Lupin? You probably just forgot, but Lupin was the one who took out Malfoy in the Department of Mysteries. Snape and Bella are the strongest, then Lupin/Sirius/James, and Malfoy is the weakest. And don't forgot to answer the previous battle as well as debating.
Agreed. Harry and Neville should have double-teamed her, to take revenge for Sirius/his parents, and Neville should have dealt the finishing blow.
True, their just lucky that when the death eaters split up to look for them Belltrix never found them, till the Order got there, cause if she had it would have been bye-bye Harry.
Just let me point out that that was a Ministry appointed job, the Rufus Scrimgeour sent his best man to protect the Prime Minister, and Moody was not one of his men anymore. The Order had no control over that.
Where does it say that he's close to Voldemort, you mean power-wise?
Slughorn survivied the Battle of Hogwarts and even fought Dumbledore, though, while Dolohov got punked by book 5 Harry.
I doubt it, when have we ever seen him use a wand? Even when he was a wizard, in book 6 fighting at Hogwarts, he attacked like a warewolf (Bill), not with a wand.
Yes, but Voldemort was likely mistaken, Moody in his day was likely stronger and Voldemort just didn't know how much weaker he'd gotten since his prime.
Yeah, but Snape could likely have finished James off right then, but he thought a small injury would make James stop. They weren't going for the kill. In a death match Snape knows far more than James. Plus he likely didn't want to do anything in front of Lily, as has been stated. I doubt James could have effortlessly blocked Unforgivable Curses from an enraged book 6 Harry.
And? Since when is being complemented by Voldemort the big be all end all? According to Bellatrix (who I doubt would be so petty as to lie) Voldemort complemented her in similar ways too.
Completely unsupported, and flat out wrong. Bellatrix is directly stated as being Voldemort's 'last and best luitenant', meaning she's the most powerful of them, not Snape. Besides, Voldemort showed no signs of real distress when he was forced to kill Snape, yet was put into a deep rage when Bellatrix was killed, so that should tell you who he valued more as a death eater.
Right, besides being completely unphased by some powerful dark magic cast at him by an outright spellcasting prodigy, and then subsequently being able to own said prodigy with his own spell.
Why would Snape be? He had no problem casting sectusumpra, a powerful dark curse, at James. If he was holding back, wouldn't you think he might have not used dark magic? Plus we know that he deeply hated James, and was likely very jealous of him, whereas James had no such strong feelings for Snape, and was clearly just bored, so if anything, JAMES would have been the one holding back.
Oh right, so because we've seen more of what Snape can do, he's automatically more powerful, yes? LMAO, great logic!!
In Potions and Dark Magic, and perhaps Occlumency and Liglimency. However, as can be seen when they were kids, James appears to be far more skilled than Snape in dueling, and his magic appears far more powerful as well.
Wohoo for Snape.
You honestly think that Snape didn't fully create and perfect his spells before using them? Not even practise them a little?
Voldemort did no such thing. Dumbledore may possibly have created his own spells, given the accounts of his NEWT examiner saying that he did things with a wand that she’d never seen before.
Why not exactly? They were already 15/16, Snape himself had already started making his own spells and immersed himself in the Dark Arts, and there's nothing to suggest that Snape would have improved by any larger degree than James from that point onwards. Fact is, despite Snape's unfair added advantage of the dark arts at his disposal, and with all his cleverness and brilliance, James was simply far more powerful and far more skilled.
In respect to dueling, Gideon. Obviously Snape was far more talented at Potions, and possibly some other magical arts.
There's also Hagrid to Harry early in book 1, McGonagall in book 3 when Harry overhears her and the others talking about how James and Sirius had been friends, even Lily hints as much during 'Snape's worst memory' when she says something like "hexing anybody that annoys you just because you can" (Snape was clearly one of those people) and while The Marauders may be somewhat biased, I doubt that they'd just outright lie.
Yeah, and despite all of that, James was still far superior. Remember Gids, I'm speaking purely in respect to dueling here.
Again. Where's your proof that rank is 100% in correlation with power and dueling ability? As I've already said, I find it honestly hard to believe that someone who was taken out by a house elf would be beyond someone like Bellatrix, who is quite clearly displayed to be somewhat of a dueling titan in the series.
What is this with you people? You honestly think that Snape was holding back more than James? Or that James wasn't holding back? Please, I've already dealt with this bs.
Doesn't change the fact that James is far more skillful, for more magically powerful, likely knows his defence against the dark arts as well as Snape knows his dark arts, and can just block or dodge (Quidditch reflexes would help) anything coming from Snape.
Yet he had no problem performing the dark curse, sectusumpra.
Who cares, Snape's leglimency would only be able to be applied to James if his occlumency was as incapable as Harry's, and worse than Draco's (who was capable of blocking out Snape).
Grindelward easily, given his brilliance and skill supposedly rivalled that of Dumbledore.
Bellatrix was cocky during her whole life, geeze. She kept on thinking that Voldemort placed her ahead of everyone. I doubt Voldemort ever told her she was a great Wizard. Maybe he could've complemented something about her loyalty, but definately not her power.
Most retarded thing you said so far, Voldemort had all of his Death Eaters taken away, he was cornered by Harry, all of his plan failed, and he was about to get killed. Dude, no shit he got angry. When he was killing Snape that meant he would get the Elder Wand, which efcourse makes him happy. Seeing his last servant die and nobody to protect him would make him angry.
He invented the spell, so why would anyone even think it is Dark Magic? He didn't go over the line with his spells, I'm sure he knew some spells that weremuch deadlier.
Every one of those people obviously had James as one of their closest friend, so those opinions are still biased.
I don't have time to answer your other 'counter arguements' right now because I have to go, but I'm preety sure James didn't know Occlumency or Legilmency. Harry had a very tough time with it, and they don't teach it in school. Who the hell would ever have taught it to him?
Yup, but that was stated after Snape died, so your point is moot. However, when they were both alive, in chapter 1, Snape sat at Voldemort's right side, proving that he was Voldemort's right hand man and thus meaning Voldemort viewed him more highly than he viewed Bellatrix.
Of course he didn't, killing any death eater, even his favorite, would be a small price to pay to receive the Elder Wand. But when Bella died Voldemort was basically the only one left, and all his Horcruxes were gone. Of course he was mad, his plans were back firing like crazy.
Wow, so James was unaffected by a gash on his face, so he has high pain tolerance, likely from playing Quidditch and such, but in a fight to the death Snape wouldn
t merely have cut his face, he'd have used Secumsempra to cut his fvcking head off! But was he going to do that, and get put in Azkaban? Hell no he wasn't. And after he'd called Lily a "filthy little mudblood", he was to distressed to fight back, plus we don't know how he got down in the first place, maybe he fought back and won.
So you think Snape would have tried to kill James? If not, pray tell me what he could have done. Levicorpus? And while he's doing so, have Sirius curse him from behind? Stupify, and while he's stunning James have Sirius stun him? No matter what Snape did to James, he wouldn't have been able to win, because it was 2 on 1, so he probably wanted to cause him some pain but not enough for him to get in serious trouble.
Wrong, Snape would have learned stuff from Voldemort after Hogwarts, James would learn nothing else. As stated before, what could Snape have done to James without either getting:
A. Expelled and possibly sent to Azkaban
or
B. Getting attacked from behind by Sirius?
Yes, he was in the presence of Lily, and knew that whatever happened he would lose.
Yes, it does, being better in a death match does make one a more skillful duelist. Just like Harry could block all that from Snape? In a death match instead of Secemsempra to the cheek, it would have been to the neck, and off with the head, can James block that? How about Avada Kadavra, I believe that is unblockable.
To defend himself, yes, and he only cut James's face, he didn't use it to it's full extent, i.e. he didn't try to kill James with it.
The hell...? What does Occlumency have to do with Harry vs. Snape in book 6? We also have no proof that James ever studied Occlumency, so there's no reason he'd be better at it than Harry was.
Irrelevant. Arrogance and deception have no necessary link.
Which he did. He quite clearly made a point about how faithful the Lestranges were to his death eaters after returning to power in GoF, and claimed that they'd be honoured beyond their wildest dreams. He left one of his horcruxes in their vault. Bellatrix quite clearly stated that Voldemort himself stated these things, with no reason to lie, and that she might have been lying completely goes against her character - way too petty. Plus, as I've said quite a bit now that you've chosen to ignore, there's the fact that Bellatrix is directly stated by the omniscient narrator as being Voldemort's last and best lieutenant.
Clearly you're quite new to the world of debating, because if you weren't, you'd know that when you make a point, you have to substantiate it. Simply claiming that Voldemort complemented Snape's power is all fine and dandy, but you have failed to substantiate how that places him above Bellatrix, and no, simply saying you doubt that Voldemort would say the same things to her is not substantiating it.
Firstly, he still believed Harry to be dead at the point where he screamed out, so we'll cross that nonsense about Harry out. Secondly, funny how you claim that what I said was retarded, yet this post is just screaming of nutcase logic. Spidervlad, your point fails because you automatically assume that Voldemort believed his plans to have truly failed when and only when Bellatrix was killed, and not before, seeing as it was at that point where he screamed out at the top of his voice. Do you honestly believe that having Bellatrix there, alive and fighting for him was the one thing keeping all of his plans in place? Quite simply a ridiculous thing to say; my opinion on the matter makes far more sense, that his fury simply stemmed from losing his most valued death eater. Simply put, to interpret the meaning behind Voldemort's scream, we have to look at what change occured at the time in question, and the only thing that makes sense would be my stance.
Either way, if he truly valued Snape as much as you're making out he did, he would have showed far more emotion.
BTW, Truly wonderful how you ignored, yet again, the omniscient narrator flat out claiming that Bellatrix was the best of all Voldemort's death eaters. I'll put it in caplocks for you "VOLDEMORT'S FURY AT THE FALL OF HIS LAST, BEST LIEUTENANT EXPLODED WITH THE FORCE OF A BOMB!"
Hmmm, could it possibly be the huge gash that appeared right at the side of James' face? You're absolutely right Spider, that's a completely harmless spell that noone could possibly believe to be dark.
Opinion =/= Fact.
Wow, last time I checked, Lily at the time was hardly biased towards James, rather against him.
LMAO. Again. Opinion =/= Fact!
Great job putting things into perspective.
1. Harry lived an entire live full of suffering. Parents dead when he was a child, growing up by people who hated him and feeling unwanted, having to witness Cedric Diggory's death, countless life/death situations... Not exactly the best characteristic for Occlumency now, huh Spidervlad?
2. Harry was being taught by his least favorite teacher that made it near impossible for him to relax, something vital for Occlumency.
3. Harry was actively trying not to learn Occlumency, to find out what was beyond the door within his dream.
So really, the fact that Harry couldn't do Occlumency proves nothing, especially when taking into account that fricking Draco could do it.
Wow. This just gets dumber and dumber. By that logic, no wizard could learn anything magic related that isn't taught in school, which would mean that the existence of people such as Olivander is a huge enigma! Now please Spidervlad, use your head, don't you think that maybe, just maybe, as a member of the order of the phoenix, James would be in a position to know lots of important info that if in the hands of Death eaters, could prove to be troubling? Dumbledore wouldn't exactly be the smartest guy in the world to be letting his agents be going out there, fighting against Death Eaters who may very well be trained in Legilimency, completely undefended against outside penetration. As I said, use your 'ead. As to where he learnt the art from, likely Dumbeldore.
Clearly the concept that people might be too busy to reply to 2 long essays in a row doesn't register to you, darthsith, however seeing as you're so desperate to continue this, I'll own your first point.
Way to misinterpret the statement dumbass. If Bellatrix was his 'last and best lieutenant,' and only the current death eaters were being taken into account like you seem to think, the 'best' part of the statement would be completely redundant, seeing as she was the only one left. So clearly the statement was speaking of every Death Eater that's ever been in Voldemort's employ, which includes Snape. Point unmooted.
The rest of your points shall be owned tomorrow, but well done being so eager to get intellectually curbstomped, bravo big man.
Wow, way to respond to one thing I said, and if you meant to sound like a dick in your response, you succeeded.
If that were the case then we have a contradiction, as in book 4 Barty Crouch Jr. Is referred to as Voldemort's best death eater. Which clearly goes to prove that it only refers to death eaters alive and active at the time. Besides, Snape wasn't the best, because he wasn't a real Death Eater, and there's no proof that best = most powerful, best could mean most loyal in which case, yes, Bellatrix wins.
Way to act like a dick, and I'll be waiting.
Quirrell vs. Karkaroff?
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Last edited by darthsith19 on Aug 8th, 2007 at 10:52 PM
I would have to say Snape, but a very close match up. But seeing as Dumbledore was able to defeat him with the Elder Wand, it means that he was considerably more skillful than Grindelwald. And Snape, although weaker than Dumbledore, is not far behind, so imo Snape would clinch this.
And i think we should just ignore 'nmensfinest' as he clearly has no idea what he's talking about by saying that because James used 'Levicorpus' once on an outmubered Snape, makes him 'far superior'. Good one
Seriously how stupid are you? Of course Snape wasn't regarded as being Voldemort's 'best lieutenant' as he had been working for Dumbledore, god think man.
Hmm..... close one! I'm thinking maybe Kingsley, he did take out two death eaters at once in book 5, survived a duel with Bellatrix, and in book 7 he is surrounded by Death Eaters but fights his way out. McGonagall gets owned by Umbridge's goons (and has to go to St. Mungo's), she does fight Voldemort, but so does Kingsley, and she fights Snape and they are seemingly pretty even, though Snape would have been holding backl cause he doesn't wish to kill her. Close battle, though, but I go with the Ministries top Auror.
I disagree about Neville and Luna. Neville is a year older, he's had a years more experience, plus Luna being locked in the Malfoy's basement for a few months, while Neville was leading a rebellion against the Carrows, and thus increasing his skills even further. His Gran is even proud of him by the end of book 7.
Oh, you meant for the battle to be staged with both of them in their conditions by Book 7, not just how good they were by the end of Book 7? Oh, then I'd agree with you.
Don't forget, though, even though Neville was a year older, both were given the same training by Harry, so Luna would've had the same amount of knowledge as Neville. (by the way, McGonagall was hit by surprise by Umbridge's goons, I think.)
About Quirrell and Karkaroff, I'd say Karkaroff would win. Even though we haven't seen much from either of them in the books, Karkaroff became the Headmaster of a school that excelled in the Dark Arts, indicating that he has extensive knowledge in that area. Wikipedia says that Quirrell was at best a mediocre wizard, but I haven't seen any evidence to support that. Quirrell was Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, showing that he also had some knowledge about the Dark Arts, but Karkaroff was older and more experienced.
Mad Eye Moody (in his prime) vs. Severus Snape.
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Aug 7th, 2007 06:04 PM
Don't be ridiculous, the fact that Snape simply invented a few spells doesn't make him any more talented than people like James, especially when the said James was capable of kicking his ass all over the place despite that little fact.
