Gender: Male Location: United States (of America... it's r
Yes. You are completely right about Cap. Marvel and the COMBINED nature of his power... it clearly makes him stronger than Diana. There are just some crazed WW fans around here- they aren't happy unless WW is "proven" to be the strongest in the DCU. Can't you like a great character without overvaluing her?
As for the Herc vs Herc debate... I go with the Marvel version. There hasn't been enough history of the DC version to get a real take on him. Obviously it should be VERY close- they are just different interpretations of the same being, after all.
They have? According to "Trials of Shazam", there are literally a million entities out there with the name Hercules and the one appearing in TOS is not the same as the one appearing in Wonder Woman comics.
Assuming the OP meant the one appearing in WW comics, he's craftier and evil. Neither one of them fights with the skills of someone trained for years in combat. So they fight to a draw and then the Heracles of myth kicks both their asses.
=) sorry wonder woman is not stronger then captian marvel. And she never will be. Its all in the writing folks. DC keeps cap around casue he has alot of die hard fans. And hes on par with supes. The new captian marvel merged with the wizard shazam is bout the strongest being in dc atm. And another thing. In all reality wonderwoman captian marvel and supes are all on about the same str level and are all capeable of defeating each other. Supes has the advantage being a bit stronger then the 2. Wonderwoman has the fighting instincts as a advantage and cap in all honesty has no real weakness.
Your sentence otoh is not. You dont have a single encounter where CM is presented as far weaker despite the *fact* he holds back more against SM than someone like WW or Orion do.
No. in *fact* post crisis so far there has been three. And WW rarely shows to be stronger than either.
He did. Rigth now, its Apollo. Until the whole Gods of Magic thing gets retconned out.
Comparation wise, she isent.
She did?
The Roman Hercules in "War of The Gods" claimed he was stronger than she was and she didnt defended her side. The Greek Heracles could well be made a case since he mentioned that his bigger feats like holding the Heavens didnt happened (in the DCUverse) but comparation wise, WW never really showed to be stronger considering since she cant do those kind of feats on her own (her three biggest feats have all help of people at least in her strength class).
The Hercules who is a God of Magic now? You cant really tell, hes too green and they havent met yet. And the current one (who knows what version is this suposse to be) who bloodied Superman? I gather Johns wouldnt write WW do any better.
All around they are relatively close. Marvel Herc is ahead because hes got way more appearances and feats (who are actually in continuity at Marvelverse), as well as figthing skills showings.
In the end OTOH, Myth Herc beats either. Hes got the big feats, was a way better figther and had at least one deux ex machina plot device.
Correction: Diana can be above (depending your writer) of the DCU version of Hercules. Myth Heracles is another monster.
You could stop pretending to have read "Trials" by now.
Last edited by olympian on Mar 2nd, 2008 at 09:13 PM
Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. Myth Hercules? WTF are you talking about? I have 5 issues of TOS. The panel shows the true Hercules (you know Zues' son). Also, power mirroring is common in comics. For example, who ever is worthy of lifting Thor's hammer then they will have the power of Thor. The hammer mirrors Thor power inside them. This is how the Gods of Magic work. They mirror Hercules strength in the person.
You would have to answer two questions before you disagree.
1. Why is it a big coincidence that the God of Magic named Hercules give super strength? Why couldn't this God of Magic give speed instead?
2. Why is the picture of Hercules (Zues' son) in the panel when Billy gets the power?
With that said, WW is stronger than Hercules according to D.C.
I don't care CM hasn't been shown to be weaker than her.
Rhino hasn't been shown to be weaker than Thing. But somehow we know he is weaker. Thing hasn't been shown to be weaker than current Colossus. But we know he is weaker. I can go on forever.
So just because a character hasn't been shown to be weaker doesn't mean that they aren't.
Do you mix Golden Age Superman with the other versions? Or the Silver Age version with the Kingdom Come version? I dont.
The same way i dont mix myth Hercules with Comic Hercules. And its only accurate to refer it so, since the Hercules WW is compared to, isent the myth one.
But you appear to have not got Winnick`s initial intent.
Because Freedy will always associate the name with the original bearer. And it may look now that Winnick is changing his initial intent, but that one was cleary that the "Gods of Magic" are NOT the "Gods of Myth" in the DCUverse. For now.
Not one person said it isent supposed to mirror anything. Only that they arent the same being. With that being said, since even similiar characters or versions of the same may vary in level of power (i.e Superman and everyone else), just because one mirror`s Hercules powerset like strength, does not mean its automatically equal.
The Hercules who is a "God of Magic" hasent encountered WW yet. And neither does either person who sports his strength. So any comparations are fruitless.
Because thats the way he sees Hercules?
DC alone cant even be consistant with that. How mant times have you seen her defeating DCUverse Hercules in a conclusive manner? This is the same as saying "well, according to Marvel Sentry got a power worth of billion zabronies of suns"
Unless a tagline is conclusive, its useless. And so far Tags have been hyperbole for the great part.
Actually i cant think of one that actually lives up to its hyperbole.
Ah, you dont care?
Well, we do. Because it matters. As obviously its going to sound.
Yes he has.
If by "somehow" you mean having a damn worse track record (if not the worse at Marvel among bricks) and not winning a single major figth since a decade ago (and i am being gentle), yes we "somehow" know.
*laughs*
Please, dont. Because you arent correct in this one either.
The only way you would think Ben is any weaker than Colossus is if you bough your "cl 100 Colossus" church badge.
Thats them great thinking there, Sherlock.
Last edited by olympian on Mar 3rd, 2008 at 08:03 AM
So you are saying that even though CM is supposed to be granted the strength of Hercules (as defined by Shazam the wizard) then this mirrored strength could be greater by the actual Hercules? If you are saying this then I guess Shazam the wizard and D.C. are liars for saying he has the strength of Hercules and not a strength greater than Hercules. Also when does power mirrors in comics give more strength than the original? Eric Masterson wasn't stronger than the real Thor.
Second, you and others seem to think that strength determines who wins in comics. This is almost never. If that was so then Spider-man would have never beaten Rhino. Skills, speed, cheapshots, luck, PIS, durability, weapons, and other powers determines 99% of comic outcomes, not strength alone. To be shown stronger would mean that one overpowered another in a tussle, or one lifted an amount the other couldn't (the other showed lift limits), and not because one has a better track record than another.
And it doesn't matter whether the Gods of Magic are the Gods of Myth
in D.C. granted CM his strength. The authors (Winnick) and writers want us to go by their intentions. And that is CM is granted the actual strength of the Mighty Hercules (as stated and shown in the 6th book of TOS) in D.C. Doesn't matter if Hercules himself granted the strength or Bozo the clown did. Just as long as he has that exact strength.
True, hyperbole exists in comics. But hyperbole is only hyperbole if it is proven to be, otherwise it isn't. CM has never been proven stronger than WW. I've never seen them wrestle and CM overpowered her. I never seen either of them fail to lift any weight they tried. So it is not yet hyperbole for D.C. to say that she is stronger than him. Even if CM beats her in a fight it means nothing in terms of whose stronger (unless CM is shown to overpower her physically through tussling).
Im saying that rigth now you have two different versions running around, that writers have portraited in different levels.
And you used to have three, before.
Or if you are asking why cant we compare every single Hercules version equally with the Myth Hercules, the reason is cleary the same of why all Supermen arent equally written either.
Marvel doesnt have several versions of Thor running around, thus Thor`s strength level is consistantly well gauged by the large bulk of Marvel writers.
Put it this way: Pre crisis had four different Hercules running around. The Hercules in "WW" title was not the same as the Hercules that powered CM on his own Earth, neither the same that became part of Kamandi Future (another Earth altogether) or the same that used to show up on "Action Comics" as a foil for Superman.
As seen: The Hercules in "WW" was on her level, while the one on "Action" was on Superman`s level strength wise speaking. Its the same guy used but in different ways, with dfferent versions, and different levels according to writers.
I mean really, you even give the logic as to why during the pre crisis days, WW couldnt be stronger than him. He was the one giving her strength.
When refering to Rhino and Thing, i made myself clear. Strengtwise Thing got a consistantly better strength record than Rhino does. Rhino only got something like two or three figths with Hulk in the 70`s that peg him higher. What about the rest?
Mostly crap. Nowaydays hes made into cannon fodder for 2/5 tonners like Kraven.
Bravo, Sherlock.
Hey, didnt CM with a broken arm faired well physically against WW and some others in "Underworld Unleashed"?
An intention you cleary missed even with one of the main characters saying rigth in the second issue of the run, how they arent the same beings despite using the same "titles".
An "exact" strength that you cant compare with anyone else yet, and only assume. Because while the name is the same, the animal in question so far isent.
Me? I dont assume.
*claps*
His bouts with WW and Superman tell me otherwise.
Since i have never seen WW do the same either, why would i accept the tagline?
Especially when CM got at least two straigh up strength stalemates with Superman in form of amrwrestling matches?
Ok you are right. I just read the 2nd issue. It does say that the only thing common the Lords of Magic have with the Olympic Gods are their titles. But wasn't this was changed during this run by Winnick? Before, it was understood (by the original writer's intention) that the strength of Olympian Hercules is what CM had.
I always thought it was one Hercules in D.C. I know pre-crisis is a different Hercules than post-crisis so this is understandable (were the olympians protected during the crisis though?) But even in the post-crisis era, are there really more than 1 Hercules running around? If so, then can you show or tell me where you read this (or show me the two or more Hercules or tell the issue numbers). The reason why I ask is because it seems absurb to me that there are more than one post-crisis Hercules running around in D.C. (not including the Lords of Magic). But thanks for the clarification.
Before, the Gods of Myth powered both. Winnick changed that because he didnt wanted comparations between them.
In fact, to your credit, the whole confusion is understandable because the execution so far hasent been 5 stars. I like the idea but when the artist starts showing those figures behind these new guys as the ones of Myth it only makes it worse.
They fough during the first crisis against those Monitor minions that wer killing all earths, And i think they survived. The pre crisis WW "happy ending" showed her being welcomed among them, after the "new"version replaced her.
Discounting the "God of Magic", rigth after crisis and in the end of Perez initial run we find out that there is the Greek Heracles and the Roman Hercules. Once upon a time the same being but separated into avatars to cover up the growth in faith among the human population.
It was showed on Perez final WW stage crossover "War of The Gods".
Frankly? Dont bother by it. The execution wasent much better than the current Trials and only added more confusion about the character.
Its all in "War of The Gods" crossover. Altho they emerge later on again, like the rest of the Godly cast. There was a Jupiter for Zeus as well, etc.
And yes, its absurd. The pre crisis thing i can understand: Hercules, like Superman, WW and etc became such icons that each Earth got theyr version. Its a simple enough (i guess) concept.
Post crisis? It migth be an artist rendition thing, but the Hercules that started showing up in Heinberg`s run visually resembles the old pre crisis "Hercules Unbound" character but still acts as the same douche of the post crisis "Perez/Byrne etc" version. Confusion TM.
Its mostly meh.
Last edited by olympian on Mar 4th, 2008 at 09:04 AM
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