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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
Damn, so with alastor and quicksilver combined. He would be lol Mach 420,000.
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May 23rd, 2012 03:55 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
@Blood rain
This what someone says about that Vergil Mach 12 feat "The video he showed was just a non-stop slow motion action sequence which in no way indicates hypersonic speed. It’s an association fallacy anyway because Dante =\= Vergil."
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May 24th, 2012 03:51 PM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
 Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
You would be correct if Vergil was also moving slow. If a character is moving at a normal speed when everything around appears to be moving at 1/10th of its real speed, that character is actually moving 10x faster than he appeared. E.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpjpRYRLhMQ A hypersonic Clark Kent.
Association Fallacy: When we know a character can do something and assume the second character who's associated with the first can do the same. Assuming this with no proof, confirmation or anything as a basis.
Problem: We have clear proof that Dante and Vergil are equal;
- The rain scene has both Dante and Vergil moving at Mach 15 (minimum + lowball).
- The tower dive has Dante moving at Mach 11.515 - 16.45 (minimum).
- DMC3 Dante = DMC3 Vergil. They're twins at the same level of power who equal each other in combat as seen in DMC3. Any physical feat one twin has, the other has as they are physically equal.
- Post DMC3 Dante >>> DMC3 Vergil. Physically superior in every way.
In DMC3 their feats are the same.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 24th, 2012 08:47 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
Dante was proven to be faster than Dante in thier last fight since Dante was able to cleave right through him before he could even attack Dante. So that makes Dante Mach 13 right? Since he was able to react faster than Vergil whom you proved was Mach 12 in attack speed from the abyss video.
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People over at factpile won't let me use the rain feat since it never happened in mission 7. It only was shown in the intro. Which means it never happened
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May 25th, 2012 04:06 AM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
They were fighting evenly up until that point, so it come down to beating someone of equal stats.
That scene is a more detailed version of their fight, that and the devs would put something /in the game/ that can't actually be done by a character.
Plus that speed is confirmed by the Tower dive.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 25th, 2012 12:48 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
I thought the minimum for the tower dive was Mach 10
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May 25th, 2012 06:58 PM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
Discussed on OBD; the minimum speed for a blunt object to ionize the air through friction is Mach 7-10.
From aerodynamics; Rebellion, being a point, would need to achieve greater speeds for the same effect.
That and Dante runs iirc 1.645x faster than his sword.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 25th, 2012 07:39 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
A guy said this about the alastor scene
"I thought I had established something like 27m/s or something, Chuck remember when calculating fall speed that Gravity actually accelerates speed, by a factor of 10m/s so if something falls for 1 second then it is going 10m/s if it falls for 2 seconds then it is going 20m/s and so on."
"Looking back I realised I made an error in that calc, I saw 3m and thought 3 seconds so actually by the time it falls three metres then it should be going at aproximatley 7.67m/s which redoing the calc makes it:
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(7.67ms/(0.3m/12s))*(2.5m/0.5s)
= (7.67m/s / 0.0075m/s) * 5m/s
= 5113.3333333m/s
= Mach 15.0269 if your looking for that."
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May 26th, 2012 03:22 PM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
Probably right with the glass speed, didnt really pay attention to it by itself back them.. or right now.
Not the slo-mo falling speed though. No glass in its own free fall (Ie totally unaffected by Dante's movements, out of his range) moves 30cm. At the last second of the time-slow for example and we see the suspended glass with no visible movement. Far off 30cm.
One day I'm going to say "That scene shows the dev's intent in demonstrating the 'lightning speed' they themselves say the 'Spirit of Lightning' Alastor gives." and hope someone can understand these apparent untranslatable words.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 26th, 2012 06:48 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
I need your help. On the bayo vs Dante thread in trying to prove to these guys that Dante has Vergil speed since Dante was able to keep up with him. This is what one guy had to say" The thing is, Dante didn’t show the speed feats his brother did in those fights. For example, Vergil was making more movements while Dante’s were more straight forward ( http://youtu.be/b-e-XFZ6_uA?t=2m18s ). He was able to counter Dante easily while still dealing with Lady. In fact, he most likely took the sword slash in order to hit Dante, increasing the blood needed to open the gate. (The fact he had his sword on his side and then spun around to slash at Dante suggests this).
As for the final battle, again, Vergil showed superior speed. Prior to that he made a slash at a distance (http://youtu.be/D7udyZm9Q3w?t=4m55s ) , a feat Dante never did during the game. Again prior to that they jump around the same time ( http://youtu.be/D7udyZm9Q3w?t=6m54s ). Vergil already landed and twirled his sword when Dante just landed. If they were the same speed, Dante would have landed around the same time. And the final battle still showed Vergil having superior speed ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npgX...feature=related ). Your example of Dante blocking that forward slash is a false dichotomy. You assume because he blocked it that he’s Vergil’s speed while ignoring the fact it was obvious Vergil was going for a direct slash attack. The fact Vergil did the same within a shorter frame should have proven otherwise.
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May 30th, 2012 05:22 AM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
 Oy vey.. this person is taking the smallest points possible and stretching them into a definitive fact.
So their points are:
-Vergil made more movements in that scene.
..what video were you watching? They making equal moves doing the whole scene. Dealing with an extra human? He hits and jumps to her near the end of their fight. Thats hardly a 2v1 situation. And are you forgetting that Vergil is naturally the better swordsman of the two?
-Vergil purposely allowed himself to get stabbed.
I would like him to read that to himself one more time. In a fight against someone of his equal, yes he knows Dante is at his level now, why would he allow himself to be weakened to such a large state that he was? If he was faster, why didnt he just dodge, block and blitz Dante?
-Vergil does a Judgement Slash.
Vergil doing a Judgement Slash, a long-ranged slash move, to to help a worn out Dante means Virg is somehow faster?
-Vergil lands before Dante.
6:57 of that video. We have Dante doing a high jump and Vergil doing a Stinger, the lunging attack, lower than Date and in the direction /towards the ground./
-Vergil rolls to the sword fast.
Doing a combat roll to beat someone getting up and then running? So? A combat roll is faster than standing up than running by default.
Seriously these aren't points, they're excuses. Dante competes with, counters and overcomes combat with Vergil, his speed is on the same level.
In-game evidence, powerscaling, being twins with the same power and the Tower Dive all say they're the same level of speed.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 30th, 2012 12:35 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
And yet you claim they’re equals. You also seem to forget Vergil flips and jumps and blocks and slashes while doing so. Dante just slashes, keeping himself on the ground. In any real situation where someone flips, they’re an easy target.
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To open the gate that requires Sparda’s blood. The two of them are Sparda’s blood. If it’ll speed up the proccess he’ll shed his own blood to get it open.
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PIS. You’re playing as Dante, thus you have to believe your character has a chance to defeat Vergil. Again, with that logic you have, Lady is also Mach 12.
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The fact that Dante NEVER does anything similar throughout the games. And 4 existed after this, no excuse not to give him something if he is that fast. And it’s called Judgement Cut.
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And yet you completely ignored the fact I mentioned following the video “Your example of Dante blocking that forward slash is a false dichotomy. You assume because he blocked it that he’s Vergil’s speed while ignoring the fact it was obvious Vergil was going for a direct slash attack. The fact Vergil did the same within a shorter frame should have proven otherwise.”
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You also seem to forget the Tower Dive has him going WITH Gravity. Also, while having the same power, they grew up with different mentalities, training, and preferences (Dante is closer to humans while Vergil is closer to demons). And finally, as mentioned above, your in game proof is flawed."
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@BR
It ridiculous how bad they want bayo to win, they never even proved how she can beat Dante they're just going against Dante because he's been winning alot in his threads lately
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May 30th, 2012 04:35 PM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
Vergil does a flip = he's faster? Or is it Dante not flipping = he's slower? There's no logic here. Or you seem to be confusing skill with speed.
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..Ok no. Pretend you're Vergil, which option would you take?: Option 1; Use your superior speed to constantly and quickly drain Dante.. or Option 2; Get cut up and beaten to an exhausted slump to get blood out, even if with your speed you could have done this quicker witout getting cut. So which on sounds better?
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Is that to something I said? Anyhow Lady never defeated Vergil. Scratch that, Lady has never even faced Vergil in a fight. And cutscenes >
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Dante never does a projectile attack means he's physically slow? I wonder if this even makes sense to you, that a projectile move somehow has relation to Dante's movement speed. Also may want to familiarize yourself with his Drive shockwave attack.
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I ignored it because it is irrelevant to pretty much anything discussed. I have no idea what 'example' you're referring to but if one character faces and defeats another while showing similar speed, they're equal.
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No. Gravity has its limits, and once you pass those limits gravity has little to do with it. Max speed gravity moves a person on Earth is Mach 0.8. How much relevance do you believe this would have on a Mach 10 sword? How about Dante accelerating faster? Do you think gravity could make a human body instantly fall at Mach 10+? A 400m/s bullet will move at the same speed whether you shoot up, down or horizontal.
Care to explain how mentality and preferences can change their physical stats? Different training only matters if we know how the training was different. All we know is that they both have extensive training and experience. Them being equal post-release proves their training made then equals.
Flawed in ways youre unable to give valid reasons for besides opinions. You have 5 reasons used to counter Dante's speed as I listed above. Rolling, Judgement Cut, landing and getting self-stabbed already being fruitless to your point, with the only worthwhile point you made being Vergil's better movements which in itself if 90% baseless with the last 10% being explained by Vergil's better swordsmanship.
Please reply after you get some evidence to back up your claims.
@Chuck: Seems like because they don't have an argument they're just going to ride on any point they can to get some sort of win. At the end of the day Bayonetta still only has Mach 0.15 speed with Mach 2-3 reactions. Now unless those guys want try argue that Dante isnt even Mach 3, there is no argument.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 30th, 2012 08:59 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
The fact he could do a flip and still be able to block Dante with ease. Again, Flipping is easy to hit and is only used for making things look stylish. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0mUVY9fLlw
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Again, PIS. Plot Induced Stupidity. You see how people get upset with how Mass Effect’s ending was. Imagine the storm that would happen in this.
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Let’s not forget that pistol rounds don’t go anywhere close to hypersonic speeds.
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You said Dante is as fast as Vergil in the second fight. Lady was also in that second fight. Unless both Dante and Vergil SUDDENLY decided to both go super slow for Lady, you’re practically saying Lady is as fast as those two.
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In order to do that technique, you would have to swing your sword at incredible speeds to create such an effect. Too boot, that Drive Shockwave attack is slower than Vergil’s Judgement Cut. Again, proving that it is wrong.
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This scene http://youtu.be/npgX0lyA3ys?t=28s , 30 seconds after the roll you noticed. Also, it does not mean they’re equal, especially since Dante hasn’t shown similar speeds.
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The problem is the Tower itself is enchanted. Notice how long it took to notice his pounding http://youtu.be/waa57qZrgag?t=32s . No slowdown, no camera tricks, all in real time. We have no clue how effective it is to gravity. Not to mention there is there was only a Mach cone when he was diving http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muVfidujxRg . As soon as he starts running, he has no cone. If he has the speed, surely something in DMC4 would prove it.
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The thing is they weren’t equals. You keep saying Vergil is a superior swordsman. That meant for Dante to compensate, he had to rely on his other methods, like the guns. Dante could adapt and change styles while Vergil stuck with the swordsmanship.
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I didn’t use rolling. Judgement cut is a technique requiring speed to use, PIS, and if it is 90% baseless, why didn’t Dante do anything?
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Please explain how he’s Mach 10 when there is no Mach cone around him? And don’t use the “invisible” excuse. the game clearly shows it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waa5...tu.be&t=58s before and after he starts the fight. And considering the angle of the cone he formed was in a higher angle than the example used above, I doubt he was even near Mach 5.
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May 30th, 2012 10:29 PM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
So being able to flip and block makes him faster? Nothing to do with his skill?
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You can't have PIS on something /you/ think happened. So answer the question to back up your claim. If you think Vegil wanted to be cut, you must have viable proof, right?
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Now Im sure you havnt seen the scene. 1. Its stated that D&V badly worn out, enough that Jester could knock them around. 2. /Lady did not fight Vergil/. She ran in, got smacked away and pinned down. But hey, if you classify getting smacked around as equaling Vergil in combat..
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You know that the speed at the tip of a sword is twice that as the persons arm speed? And that that shockwave saved a /worn out Dante/? And did you just compare unknown cutscene speed with unknown gameplay speed?
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What does a clip of Virgil running at Dante prove?
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...AreAlreadyDead, take a good read. Enhanced tower because it didn't shatter instantly? Kind of a reach, no? We do know how effective things are to gravity. We do know that gravity can't instantly accelerate a body to that speed. Yeah no, you don't need to have a mach cone for supersonic speed nor do you even have a mach cone present with hypersonic speed.
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No. Dante uses guns against Vergil when he's desperate, something that doesnt happen once he got a power boost. In the plot Dante only uses what he's shown to use. Therefor you cant suggest that Dante had more methods as he's only shown using his sword against Vergil. It was guns&sword vs sword, minus the guns as they're useless here. So sword vs sword.
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No I meant 90% of your claim was baseless besides Vergil's skill.
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..ok to start thats not a supersonic shocwave, thats just the air. More importantly, why are you showing me his initial gravity induced falling speed? If you've seen the vid you'd know that the hypersonic speed feat in question begins at 1:50...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_n..._around_objects
"As the Mach number increases, so does the strength of the shock wave and the Mach cone becomes increasingly narrow. As the fluid flow crosses the shock wave, its speed is reduced and temperature, pressure, and density increase. The stronger the shock, the greater the changes. At high enough Mach numbers the temperature increases so much over the shock that ionization and dissociation of gas molecules behind the shock wave begin. Such flows are called hypersonic."
The 'Mach cone' you're asking for is right in that scene at 1:50. The sword was launched so fast the friction on the air developed a hypersonic 'cone' around it.
Hypersonic speed for a /small/ and /sharp/ object yields to Mach 10+ easily.
Than Dante runs even faster than it.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 30th, 2012 11:51 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
How do you think Mach cones are seen in the first place? Because the air moves pass the falling object.
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I have news for you, all your claims of speed is baseless as well because Devil May Cry ignores physics.
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And this statement proves physics does not exists. How a sword can have a mach cone when someone else running after it doesn’t proves that all this is nothing but style. In fact, considering the background moves at a slow pace when two miles per minute looks like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEoV3-rsQe0 )proves all that math is for nothing.
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You’re going to completely ignore the fact Vergil was going for an attack and Dante’s counter for it was blocked? Really?
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May 31st, 2012 02:35 AM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
No its because the pressure creates a shockwave that's pushed forward by the object. Did you ignore the part where the ionized shockwave shown in the scene proves its hypersonic speed?
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So now we're going to the poor debating form of ignoring a verses feats because of some physics that dont happen irl? I wonder if you realize that this can be applied to every verse. Hiro stopping time? Flash running at FTL speeds? Hulk lifting a mounting above their heads? What about in Hancock instantly stopping that train? But if you want to strip off every characters feats that have even a single real life physics issue than be my guest, though you may as well not debate characters at that point.
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Your use of pointless videos doesn't cease to amaze me. How can Rebellion have a mach cone if Dante's running behind also with a mach cone? Lets see.. the sword has a hypersonic cone.. so does Dante.. and he's running faster than it... Gee, I wonder what this dastardly riddle could mean :/
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Vergil charges in and Dante blocks/counters. So to you this means that even though a moment of equalized collision was formed, Vergil is faster because he wanted to do a little run up first? OK, bro, you need to work on actual evidence gathering or properly explaining your points logically.
Chuck, this guy is... terrible
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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May 31st, 2012 01:56 PM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
Dude, when you get the chance read this thread
http://www.factpile.com/4672-bayone...#comment-365428 agian they're now trying to pass bayo off as a lightning timer even though she never dodges natural lightning, she only dodged the unquantifiable kind. The kind that doesn't even branch out, the lightning bayo dodges looks like a laser beam and shines a light before its fired. This shit is getting stupid. I'm thinking about just quiting that thread. They're all against me
Last edited by chuck inglish on Jun 1st, 2012 at 12:49 AM
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Jun 1st, 2012 12:43 AM |
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution
Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru |
Taking this to PM.
__________________
"Gonna need more chloroform..."
"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"
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Jun 1st, 2012 01:19 AM |
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chuck inglish
Senior Member
Gender: Male
Location: United States |
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Jun 8th, 2012 11:51 PM |
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