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Respect The God of War!!!!!!
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

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Location: Midcyru

Kratos jumping on the rocks, the speed feat.



With the commercial he said that Kratos does have godly reflexes then referenced the gow2 instant, so while an interesting point its still an advert with no canon reference in the game to where he's meant to have done so.

Guess it'd be best to see him react to the QTE before it touches him?


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Old Post Aug 12th, 2013 08:26 PM
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CosmicComet
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The advert itself not canon. The point of the discussion was that its an accurate depiction of his abilities via Mark's response to it.

Basically, he's giving a rare confirmation of a gameplay element (having to block/reverse lightning, rolling out of the way etc) that is not mentioned in the story being canon.


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Last edited by CosmicComet on Aug 12th, 2013 at 08:32 PM

Old Post Aug 12th, 2013 08:29 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

Now I'm hoping he's referring to the QTE, because a dev saying Kratos can reacting to lightning in gamaplay is just him telling us what happens in gameplay.


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Old Post Aug 12th, 2013 09:05 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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Not really. The dev told us that Kratos 'had to avoid Lightning/parry Lightning' when he fought Zeus, meaning Kratos avoiding/parrying Zeus' Lightning actually happened at some point, and so it is canon.
Considering Kratos cannot avoid or parry but only block that Lightning Storm at the end of the fight in 2, regular lightning tosses from Zeus are what he's referring to.


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Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 01:24 AM
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BloodRain
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Location: Midcyru

How is that not him just pointing out what you do in the Zeus battle? confused


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Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 01:04 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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It is. But he's also telling us that Kratos being able to Lightning-time/dodge is canon and not 'just a gameplay element' like you seemed to be implying.


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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 03:34 PM
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BloodRain
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"When Zeus throws his electricity use the the Golden Fleece to defend and send it right back!"

If he's referring to gamapley then he's telling us the above, in a way, something a game guide/manual/in-game description would say.


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Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 04:02 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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Pfft, in game descriptions can be hyperbolic at times.
There's a reason people refer to dev statements as "Word of God." stick out tongue

But really though, most people would write it off as gameplay elements. They can no longer do that.


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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 04:06 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

But its still gameplay.. a dev telling us something that happens in gameplay is just that. "or at least parry it" isn't the most solid word of god.

We are still left with no scenes demonstrating anything close to lightning reactions, only non-script gameplay.


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 04:22 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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Again, not really. A dev telling us that something happened, even if we only see it happen in gameplay, makes that event canon now. With everything else to consider about Zeus, it's stupid to assume that Kratos never had to dodge or return Lightning from a few meters away.

Even though that commercial is obviously non-canon, the dev stated that the commercial still portrays Kratos' reactions and speed accurately. Not unlike the Dante/Vergil Rain-drop suspending scene in DMC3.


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"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 04:31 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

And what makes that level of description and reference difference from guides or in-game notes? Thats how its always been, needing legit reasons for the event to happen. I said the same thing for assuming Dante never had to dodge Blitz's attacks/bolts from point blank.


Difference is the commercial is 100% non-canon from using both an event, scene and character that has no relation to GoW. DMCs is a cinematic of a canon scene (Like the Deep Drive cinematic of KH which is used in the same way as the rain scene, people consider it canon) and is a double-digit mach feat not far above other speed feats.


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 05:24 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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It's a confirmation directly from a developer, hence the "Word of God" moniker, and it doesn't directly contradict anything in the series. He's saying Kratos can dodge Lightning. There is no need to have it confirmed in a cutscene as he has the ability in-game, AND this ability is confirmed to be canon by a dev.
At this point, you're just shutting your ears and trying to ignore this for whatever reasons you have. erm

If you got a DMC dev to confirm that Dante had to actually dodge Blitz's attacks, it would be a canon gameplay element and something that Dante actually did.

Doesn't matter what way you try to spin it. Both scenes are non-canon as they never happened at all, and both are known to correctly depict the abilities of the character(s) in question.


__________________


"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Aug 13th, 2013 at 05:37 PM

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 05:34 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

Yes, he's saying you dodge or parry Zeus' lightning in the boss fight. Said it like its obvious, and is to anyone that has played the game. He pointed out what we already know. Now I'm asking why a dev telling us what happens during gamaplay means its canon and not just him pointing out that feature?

"it's stupid to assume that Kratos never had to dodge or return Lightning from a few meters away." Nothing to do with the dev here, thats the part I'm talkin' about.

Its not a spin, its a fact. Both are cinematic of canon events, 99% the same things happen with the same characters doing things that are extremely similar to what they have shown in-game. The GoW ad does the opposite, so why are we to consider it relatable to canon cutscenes?


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 05:56 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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Because he's telling us it actually happened. Read the entire conversation again. He's using GoW2 to prove that Kratos actually is capable of Lightning timing, meaning Kratos actually did Lightning-time in GoW2 at some point.

It is a spin. Both the Rain feat in the intro scene of DMC3 and the Lightning Dodge feat in the GoW2 commercial are non-canon events and never happened. Both are confirmed to showcase the abilities of the characters accurately, i.e. that the characters are capable of actually performing the feat despite never having done so. Nothing more, nothing less.


__________________


"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 06:07 PM
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CosmicComet
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Dear God BR, this is reaching of the highest order.

The context of the discussion is simple, and very easy to digest.

1.The question was whether Kratos could dodge lightning like in a posted commercial.
2. The answer was that Kratos had the 'reflexes of a god' and then clarifies that to mean that the commercial's validity is self evident to him since Kratos did indeed had to avoid/parry lightning in a fight against Zeus.

Notice he said Kratos. Not the player. The player doesn't have to do that to win. The player can phuck up and still win.

He gave a narrative of what was happening in a fight that is otherwise just given to us as gameplay; Kratos had to dodge and/or parry lightning, and so he did.


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Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 06:37 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

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Location: Midcyru

@DP: Yeah I did, and its not that direct. Even by CC's own "I would assume he's talking about the bolts you send back with the fleece as well as the QTE at the end", its interpretation. In the end he's citing gameplay and still with no lightning reactions shown in any game.

In the simplest view they are equals, akin to a straight yes/no question. One showcases a canon scene with a small fraction of it being different, the other has absolutely no ties to anything. Thats a significant difference. I could grab a dev quote about Dante in SMT, still non-canon.. even if it would be lulzycool for Dante to stomp 99% of fiction stick out tongue


@CC: Hey bro, long time :T

So when I ask you what the difference is between anything else saying "Fleece beats lightning" like the game itself or other quotes, you'll be able to explain exactly without just going "Dev said so"?

Know why an actual scene is needed? Because with gameplay we can't say whether or not this included telegraphing or aim-dodging. Things that would significantly lessen the feat in question. And because of this nothing says that it was or wasn't, making it very questionable. Where's my cutscene?


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 07:30 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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It's open to interpretation as to what exactly Kratos dodged or parried. It's not open interpretation as to Kratos being a Lightning timer. That is made explicitly clear by the developer. CC's right, you are reaching at this point.

Except the feats in question are non-canon. The rest of the scene being canon or non-canon does nothing to change the feat itself since the feat never happened. So there is no difference between the rain feat, and the lightning dodging feat. Both are non-canon. Both never happened. Both still are confirmed to be within the character's capabilities. Dante's via a calc, Kratos' via Word of God.

Go ahead. Since this would ultimately come back to Kratos vs. Dante, I could probably find a statement from Jaffe or some such (GoW creators/directors) about Kratos being > God or something to that extent, which would mean that Kratos would solo 100% of Fiction.


__________________


"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 08:45 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

Reaching because the man speaks about what happens in gameplay and I don't fall to my knees in accepting that a gameplay battle is more than gameplay even without knowing of the hows, those technicals we all work with? Its not reaching, that's standard practice here. He didn't dodge any lightning in scenes, failed to in one occasion, so if we're are to treat this as a reaction feat we'd need to look at the Qs, like was it the telegraphed attacks he literally throws in-game or if aim dodging played a part. Its what we do for reaction feats, after all.


Except that besides being in-game, its showing us canon instances given a make-over. That cannot even be compared to a tv advert with zero relation to the game.

Not when I prove that SMT god > God wink


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 13th, 2013 10:50 PM
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Demonic Phoenix
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He brings up what apparently happens in gameplay to validate the fact that Kratos has relativistic reactions as per the advert. Meaning Kratos is capable of dodging Lightning without needing it to be telegraphed or having to aim-dodge according to the developers, the people who made Kratos. So yes, you are reaching/ignoring this for whatever reason.
Standard practice here regarding gameplay abilities is "the developers would not give the characters abilities that can be used in gameplay if they didn't intend them to be able to use them."

No, the rain scene is showing us a non-canon event (sword clash with water falling around them) that directly contradicts the canon event (sword clash without any water dropping). If anything, that makes the feat invalid since it is directly contradicted by what actually happened. Yet you accept it without question.
Both feats are non-canon/never happened, and are well within the capabilities of the characters. The canonicity of rest of the scene has no bearing on the feat.
No amount of 'most of the rest of the scene containing the non-canon feat was canon whereas the other one was non-canon so I'm gonna ignore the second non-canon feat but accept the first non-canon feat, because I can' will change that. Quit applying double-standards. Either reject both feats, or accept both of them.
The dev already stated that Kratos is canonically capable of doing what he did in the commercial. His word outweighs yours and any calc/argument you attempt to make. End of story. I'm growing tired of this.


God created humans who created the SMT god. So nah. God > Jaffe > Kratos > God > Humans > Dante > SMT god


__________________


"To all visitors from Transylvania looking for the head of Voivode Dracula: Yes, we have it. Yes, he's dead. No, you cannot see it. No, he will not return and invade you again. It has been over thirty years, please stop pestering us."

Last edited by Demonic Phoenix on Aug 14th, 2013 at 03:20 AM

Old Post Aug 14th, 2013 03:17 AM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

Because the dev hinted towards telegraphing/aim-dodging in his reply? He spoke about a lightning dodge by mentioning Kratos dealing with it in gameplay. In gameplay both of those factors would come up.

Tbh why should I or anyone accept what happened in a non-canon advert to that degree just because a dev made a comment. Thats going back to the Dante/SMT thing. They can both be rubbed up by officials all day long, they are both have 0% canon placement.

..see now you're just assuming that SMT didn't create Earth. You blind fool :<


Btw even though I don't believe that ad is canon in any way, nor do I believe any scene has ever demonstrated lightning timing in the whole series so far.. I still believe that fighting Zeus should give Kratos impressive reactions in the same way I've said the same for Blitz/Dante and other similar things. It's just like with the rest I've never seen people say a possible feat like this should be considered true.





Also, CC, a Q about your reactions/speed argument. Back when you said Kratos didn't have lightning reactions due to his low-superhuman speed (I assume thats changed now?) you said that bullet timing didn't count because it achieved trope status for how its used. What about lightning though? There are many examples of characters that react to lightning when their speed is majorly below that speed, in the same way human-levels dodge bullets. Pokemon, MLP, Bayonetta, Toriko, Sonic etc. This isnt some argument against GoW, just curious about why something nearly as tropish as bullet-timing would be accepted.


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"If you look down on us, judge us, condemn us... then you shall fear us!"

Old Post Aug 15th, 2013 12:12 AM
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