I just found this thread ironically. I wasn't even looking for it. I was looking for Secret Invasion #3 discussions since Newsarama is down. What a great issue! I almost never venture outside the vs forum here in KMC. And I don't mean to spark a debate here, but I think there are several obvious flaws in your reasoning, Raoul:
1) In 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis,' Maxwell Lord positively states that he could get Superman to kill for him. Up until his death, he never retracts that statement. To use a divergent future timeline's Maxwell Lord as evidence lends credence to your theory. But it's just about arguable. Arguable. Not concrete. We all know alternate universes and divergent timelines are very rarely used as on-panel proof for or against New Earth or 616 Earth stuff. There is no on-panel evidence in proper history which suggests that Maxwell Lord didn't have complete control over Superman. In fact, the events in 'Sacrifice' support that he does and he supports it with his own words under the Lasso of Truth.
2) Superman has had his mind taken over in several different ways. By Circe (magic), by Dracula (hypnosis) and by Eclipso (possession), off the top of my head. He did not fight his way out of any of these. Circe's spell was broken by Wonder Woman, Dracula's hypnosis ended when he bit Superman and inadvertently killed himself and Spectre, at the behest of Shazam, separated Eclipso from Superman. These are all relatively recent. And Maxwell Lord's mental control was different from my examples and your examples in three fundamental ways. It was: 1) subtle; 2) multi-layered; and 3) built up over years. Subtlety is quite the key here. Because in all of your examples, except for Poison Ivy arguably, Superman knew he was being assaulted mentally and actively had a chance to assert his will against the manipulations. He doesn't get that benefit here. So how much more potent is Lord's feat than the examples you and I posted? Well, one simple and direct indication of its potency was Martian Manhunter's utter inability to reverse it.
3) First off, Superman killed both DOS Doomsday and H/P Doomsday. So, if Superman is seeing Doomsday, then yes... his moral stance wouldn't be above trying to kill him. And that was the case here. But just in case you're arguing what I think you're arguing... are you saying that if Superman is not actively trying to kill someone, he isn't actually fighting at his fullest? Which would kinda make sense except for the obvious flaw. As you state, Superman never really tries to kill anybody. Yet, I positively remember you using Superman's fight with Manchester Black as an example of a full-on Superman. But there, he wasn't trying to kill them either. Not in the slightest. So Superman does not need to be actively trying to kill someone in order to fight at his fullest. But if there was anybody who we would try to kill... who would it be most likely? You got it. Doomsday. Especially one that just ripped Lois apart.
Your arguments are reasonable to me. But you: 1) make liberal use of a divergent future timeline's events; 2) do not recognize how mind control has worked in the past and how different Lord's control was in its subtlety; and 3) ignored that Superman has killed Doomsday and doesn't even need to actively kill to fight at his fullest. I do not believe your arguments are conclusive. I continue to believe that Superman was fighting at his fullest in 'Sacrifice.'
By the way. Cool thread. I like the idea. If I wanted to throw my two cents here and there on some stuff, would that be ok? Or should I submit them to someone?
lord SAYING he can do something, and actually doing it, are two very different things... even if he believes he has control over clark, that doesnt neccessarily mean that he does...
we also know that the timeline only diverged after ted wasnt killed, and given how short a time afterwards diana did fight clark, there is no evidence to suggest that lord or clark were any different...
and lord also claims that he has control in booster gold, yet he still can't make clark kill...
there's also the point that bruce survived, and clark had several opportunities to kill diana, and didn't.
all recent, yes, but he has just as many recent examples of breaking or fighting mental control... dracula, eclipso and circe were all magic, first of all, which adds a HUGELY important factor...
clark knew before he fought diana that lord was controlling his actions, though...
clark only killed DOS doomsday as a last resort, and H/P?
you don't think thats stretching, slightly? no, superman doesnt need to kill if he doesnt want to, but the guy is so anti-death that he only uses it as an absolute last resort... death as a concept actually disturbs the guy (birthright), and it is well within clark's character not to kill any sentient life form no matter what they had done to him...
a divergent timeline with negligible passage of time before clark fights diana...
yet he knew lord was in his head before fighting diana... and the amount of times he's beaten mind control far outnumber the amount of times he's been beaten by it...
i didn't ignore, anything, imo, but if you disagree, thats fine... doesnt make me any less right, imo...
A good reference to Lord saying he can make Superman kill but being unable to do so is also in Booster Gold, where Booster messed up time and Lord actually won, but he was still unable to make Superman kill, even with more time and it frustrated him greatly.
edit;
nevermind its already referenced.
haha @ not reading thread.
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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 8th, 2008 at 04:24 PM
Like I said, it's a reasonable opinion. But a couple of last comments for my part.
1) Superman may have had prior knowledge that Lord was controlling his perceptions. But in his fight against Diana, there is no evidence that Superman was actively thinking of Lord's mental manipulation. To assume that he was actively thinking, "Oh no. Lord might be making me see this. I have to fight it." during his fight with Wonder Woman is speculative at best. Nothing on-panel indicates that. Everything on-panel, from Lord's comments to Superman's utterances indicates that he's completely focused on seeing Lois' death and killing Doomsday. Lord makes him see and think what he wants him to see and think.
But I acknowledge the possibility that Superman may have thought about Lord. But remember, he was aware of Lord's manipulation in the prior JLA fight on the satellite and that awareness changed nothing. Superman didn't even try thinking about fighting mental manipulation then. Lord made Superman think that the JLA were being controlled by Lord and it didn't even occur to him that he should question himself. This is the power of Lord's subtlety and is vastly distinguishable from the examples you and I listed.
2) You may believe that the divergent timeline only had a negligible passage of time and Clark and Lord weren't any different, but more than one year had actually passed. Booster and Beetle travelled back to what they believed was the present, and going by the passage of time using events as benchmarks, 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis' events passed, 'One Year Later' came and went and most of 'Countdown to Final Crisis' came and went. I'd say near two years had passed. Who knows what occurred during those two years? Jurgens practically overplays how drastically saving Blue Beetle has caused this timeline to diverge. We don't even know that Superman fought Wonder Woman in a 'Sacrifice'-style fight in this divergent future timeline. Additionally, it seems Maxwell is just trying to overtly force Superman to kill people by controlling his motor functions, rather than manipulating what he sees and tricking him into killing people. That's completely different from his technique throughout 'Sacrifice.' So yeah, Lord and Superman seem pretty different there.
But I do agree that there is the possibility that proper New Earth Maxwell Lord could simply have believed he had control and yet, may actually not have. I just don't see using this divergent future timeline as a proper basis for overturning a literal 'Sacrifice' interpretation. It asks for too many allowances for me to swallow as concrete proof and generally, I just chafe at alternate universes or divergent future timelines in general.
3) And again, I don't think a killing intent is required for a depiction of a full-on Superman anyway. Most of us believe that Superman can go all-out without wanting to kill. Whether or not Superman was actively trying to kill Diana in 'Sacrifice' is a moot point when assessing how serious he was about the fight. I'm still going with the easy, on-panel literal interpretation of 'Sacrifice.' Superman was very much more likely fighting at his fullest. He'd have to, if he's thinking he's fighting Doomsday. He's not foolish enough to hold back against him.
EDIT: Oh, another thing about Booster Gold's foray into an divergent future timeline. In Booster Gold #9, it states that Brother Eye cannot assimilate Fourth World tech. That's why they keep Mister Miracle alive. But we've seen Brother Eye do that in 'Countdown to Final Crisis,' when he assimilates the entirety of Apokolips. So yeah, another reason why this divergent timeline shouldn't be reliable evidence against proper New Earth history. They get crap wrong all the time.
ODG, i could reply to you, but it'd be more out of me wanting to be polite, than actually engaging in debate... not that i don't respect your opinion, but i don't see anyone changing my mind, and i doubt you do either...
Actually, it was only because the vampire had magically heightened her abilities, and she said she wouldn't have been able to keep control unless the magical head Vamp took over the mental control...
He was astonished she could do it, but because he didn't realize how powerful she'd become after he had boosted her, along with all the others, power set.
And iirc, she says she didn't know if she could maintain it, but that he took over with his hypnosis anyways.
And he was certainly taking control. And they continuously mentioned that it was all only possible because of Superman's "unique vulnerability to magic".
They all follow Crucifer because he found them when they possessed small latent telepathic (or other) powers, and he boosts them to new heights. It's his "plan".
As for the comments she makes, I'll check later.
And the hypnosis is a magical connection made after he sucks Supes blood...
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Jun 8th, 2008 08:08 AM
