note how Spiderman is hanging on a rotten rafter but his spider sense only warns him just before its about to break.
Oh and it doesnt matter even if his senses warn him when other people are in danger because he wasnt even in Wolverines vicinity. Spiderman and DD were swinging away in the distance.
Last edited by Deadline on Feb 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
The punishers a normal human being. Wolverine has got a good h factor plus peak human strength. He is even a better fighter than the punisher plus he has unbrakjable claws he wins a straight up fight certainly
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Punisher hardly fights anyone superior in a straight fight, unless its a random encounter, and even then he still may have something up his sleeve. This is however not a random encounter thus wolverine loses the majority.
my point exactly.
lets just hope battleass can figure this out and we can all call it a day.
for you info, wolverine and punisher had a close encounter fight with Wolverine jumping him out of no where. even then Punisher beat him by hitting him in the balls and pouring petrol on him. he was going to torch him but was stopped. i can post the link if you want too. then there was the time when he shot him in balls and roadrolled him
so far we have Frank and Wolverine face each other on three occassions:
-was jumped by wolverine and still won
-(a little later) he shot him in the balls and roadrolled him
-with preperation, he just shot him with a rocket launcher and blew him up
notice i'm not saying that frank can beat him in h2h or straight up encounter. i'm just tellling you that its not that cut and dry and that you can never expect Frank NOT to pull something off.
With an hour prep Wolverine would be lucky not to get killed. Wolverine will be meeting that dude he has to battle to come back to life 7-10 times. I am sure if Wolverine is there enough, that guy will have him figured out and keep him dead.
First off, Wolverine yells at Frank before he even attacks him..
Second, Punisher was on the defensive almost exclusively.. He even comments that Wolverine is handing him his ass in a straight fight.
Finally Punisher chalks up his advantage in that fight to luck.
Now, we also have contrasting evidence that Wolverine can take massive damage to the genitals without being hindered while in battle.
The steamroller part of that arc wasn't even a fight. And, it's worth noting that Punisher resorted to the steam roller specifically because he admitted that nothing else he could do would stop Logan.
Finally, the rocket launcher thing; yeah now that came out of no where... even then Logan wasn't even KOed by the hit... :/
And to top all this off.. we have Garth Ennis behind the writing of each and every one of these specific encounters... A man with an admitted bias that he applies in his stories.
Other encounters between Punisher and Logan have had Logan putting punisher down in one hit.
Toying with him and insinuating he was gay.
Now Punisher's a tough guy no doubt, he knows what he's doing. But..... He's just not likely to win this fight, even with prep Wolverine's experience is more vast. His training more versatile. And his physicality superior in every way. Punisher may be able to pull off some wins but not for the majority and not based off of Ennis'.... work..ugghhh
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
yep...Wolverine winds this 8/10, what could Punisher really do to Wolverine that could give him a clear victory anyway. Wolverine is the Punisher and then some. And he doesnt carry around a briefcase full a pictures of men in them like Frank does...
It slows him down. Unless you have a scan of his schlong being blown off and he doesn't notice? He seemed to notice in New Avengers. I'm asking an honest question.
Umm. That would be a win per forum rules. He had his lower half of his body blown off and he was helpless until he healed.
When did this happen? It'd be a lot more helpful posting scans or at least comic issues, because I've read Punisher and I don't remember this happening. Would certainly help to justify your position a bit more.
If you don't think Punisher could lay a nearly inescapable killzone inside a warehouse for Wolverine, you need to brush up on your imagination. Or start reading some Punisher. I mean... EVERY other Marvel Max Punisher issue details his killzone creation capabilities. Warehouse, hotel, house, desert, nuclear silo, front lawn, backyard... I mean... that's how he does what he does. Tell me how many prepped ambushes an unprepared Wolverine has defused that were set up by someone on the Punisher's level and I might start taking your position more seriously.
Punisher pulling a majority can't be based off of Ennis' work? Absolutely it could. Based off of Loeb's work, Millar's work, Way's work and Bendis' work as well, while you're at it just to name a few examples. Nothing like living in the present.
I don't know where the idea came from. And I haven't found any admission on my Internet search. Don't expect to find a statement like that anyway. Something like that would be career suicide in the comics industry. Ennis has written the Authority, Midnighter, Batman, Darkness... among others. All of which are superhero titles. He certainly doesn't write Daredevil down. Most people who complain about him appear to be Wolverine fanboys trying to twist his otherwise largely popular writing into something that it's not.
The Punisher verse Wolverine is still debated? This I can’t understand for the life of me.
Let’s view the two combatant’s physical abilities.
We have strength: Punisher though strong for his age is still human and not even the level of a peak-human. Logan is a low meta human giving him a massive strength advantage.
Next we have agility. Punisher again is simply human and though agile for his age he not even one of the most agile humans and well below the peak-human level. Logan is superhuman in terms of agility giving him far greater agility.
Now let’s view the two in terms of reflexes. Punisher has great reflexes for his age and is for a simple human one of the fastest reacting humans. Like in the two abilities above he is still well below that of Wolverine who has superhumanly fast reaction times allowing him to react to bullets even after there fired.
Now let’s view the two in terms of combat speed. Punisher again is a very fast moving opponent for a human, but again he not even at the top of his class. Logan on the other hand has superhuman combat speed allowing him to move for quick bursts faster then humans can even react or see at times. This grants another large advantage to Wolverine.
Now let’s view the two in terms of stamina. Punisher for his age has great stamina, but he is still rather up there in age which causes depletions over time in stamina. He again is not one of the best humans in terms of stamina. Logan has high level of superhuman stamina. This allows him to fight for days straight at peak performance if not beyond that. Logan has fought for close to a week straight of none stop combat with out seeming to tire. This grants Logan a massive advantage is a fight.
Now we go to pain tolerance. This is one area that Punisher has in spades. This has allowed him to overcome opponents who other wards would have defeated him. His pain tolerance is almost inhuman and even beyond that of many super humans. This is ability that in almost any fight he has had over his opponent human or superhuman a like. However in this fight he is facing an opponent who pain tolerance is even beyond that of himself. Wolverine has taken such pain as being lit on fire and kept battling, having dick shot off, he kept fighting, having his entire arms muscle, and skin and blood destroy leaving only his arm bone remaining and still fought on. This is a man who has been tortured repeatedly and kept fighting on. A man who every time his claws come out of his hands causes massive pain that is unbearable and yet he shows no signs of pain and fights on. This is another advantage to Logan and one of which that effects Punisher greatly, because he can no longer rely on his ability to withstand pain to get him through the encounter.
Next we have to compare the two in terms of durability. Punisher for a human is a very durable opponent and can withstand hits that other humans could not. This however pales into comparison with that of Wolverines. Wolverine prior to weapon x had inhumanly dense bones and muscles. After the Weapon X project his skeleton was grafted with adamatium causing his bones to be unbreakable. This further amplified his durability because his bones can no longer be broken. This however is not the only enhancement he received from the Weapon X program. His muscles were also chemically induced granting his muscles further inhuman durability. This was stated in the Weapon X novel.
The final physical comparison is between the two combatants senses. Punisher senses are that of any human maybe at best on the higher end of the human spectrum though well below peak-human. Now let’s view his opponent. Wolverine’s senses are superhuman and some of the best senses in is tier and even above. Theses senses will allow him to know were Punisher is with extreme ease while Punisher will have little to no knowledge of Logan will be.
Now as seen physically Punisher is simply out classed and his ability like pain tolerance which aids him greatly in defeat physically superior opponents is not an advantage in this match up like it is in many others.
Now let’s view the skill sets of the two combatants.
First we will view fighting skill. Punisher is a great fighter and it has aided him to overcome physically superior opponents, by simply being the superior fighter. Now in this match up verse Wolverine he is actually at a disadvantage in terms of fighting skill. Logan has vastly greater knowledge of martial arts. He knows far more styles and mastery over them all. Punisher has only knowledge of the techniques for close quarters fighting that was taught to him in the military. Though he received some of the best close quarter hand two hand combat training given by the American military, it is simply not as effective or skillful as mastering numerous Martial Arts techniques from around the world. Nor is it as good as receiving training from Ogun a demon who has been around for over a thousand years and who is beyond the skill level of even top tier Martial Artists and the many other masters Wolverine has trained under. Logan has also been trained in vastly more military branches in hand two hand combat and by individuals who were considered some of the deadliest people on the planet. So even in terms of close quarter’s military combat training, Logan has received far more training and better training in close combat fighting. That military combat training, plus Wolverines Martial Arts training simply puts him on a level beyond Punisher. Wolverine’s skill level is that of a top tier while Punisher is a high end third tier fighter. Logan is simply the superior fighter granting him a large advantage.
Now we will view and go over the two in terms of military abilities. Now this is another area in which Punisher time and again uses to overcome his opponents that normally would likely defeat him. Punisher is a trained marine, special opts, Navy Seals and expert in a number of fire arms and explosives. He has in almost any match up far greater military training and expertise’s. In this match up however he again does not hold the advantage. Logan has far more training and in far numerous military area’s. Wolverine has been in the Canadian as well as the American army, he been trained in both American as well as Canadian special opts, he a train paratrooper, he train as CIA agent, he been a trained spy by the best (Black Widow adoptive Father who was thought of as the greatest Russian spy and spy in general), also trained by Weapon X and it shadow organizations train by and for Team X, train shield agent, train in French military, trained X-Men, Alpha Flight and Avengers. That’s not even all the organizations military and non military that he has been trained for. Logan simply has many times the military training that Punisher has or even could achieve. This gives Logan another advantage in this match up.
Now let’s view combat experience. Now Punishers has loads of experience. He been known as the “been there done it type of guy”. He has served in Vietnam War in the Special Forces as the point man. He fought many battles verse at times unthinkable odds. This is not his only experience as well. After his wife and child were murder he has gone around avenging them and brings punishment to those that he thinks are deserving of such fates. His training and experience in the Vietnam War has aided in this path he has chosen. This path has only sharpened his skills and broadens his experience. This has led him into conflicts with superheros and villains with powers beyond that of normal or even trained humans. His vast experience has always been an advantage verses almost any opponent he has faced. It has aided him to overcome opponents that other wise he would have fallen to. This however is not an advantage he will receive in this match up.
The foe he faces has been fighting for over a century. Wolverine in his current incarnation (not even going to add in the other incarnation and the lives they lived) originally began fighting when he was no more then a teenager which was well over century ago. He began as a cage fighter and a highly skilled one at that and study the art of the samurai from text’s he had received as a gift from his mentor of sorts named “Smitty” who was the reigning champ of the cage fights. Logan was roughly around 14 to 16 of age. So this would mean that Wolverine started from a younger age as a fighter then Punisher did and that’s not even adding the fact that Logan is many times Punishers age. Logan served in World War I for America, Canada, France and II which he also served for Canada, America and the original Weapon X group prior to forming weapon x, he served in Korea, Vietnam, Golf War, Other battles and location through out the cold war, served as a free lance agent for many different countries, as a spy for many countries (saved Peters parents and saved there life’s), CIA, Team X, Weapon X and shadow groups and shield. He served a long Nick Fury, who Logan is also more experienced then, Captain America, Bucky, saved Blades life when Blade was younger and inexperienced (reason Blade wares black leather jacket) all prior to Punisher being born. Logan has served in Iraq and Afghanistan if not mistaken. Logan has also served in the Avengers, Every X-Men Team, Secret Defenders (Punisher served in with Wolverine),X-Force and ect. That’s not the entire list, but it will do, in order for me to make my point. Punisher is many times less experienced then Logan. Logan was a veteran prior to even Nick fury first battle which took place in World War I. Wolverine had more combat experience then Punisher likely has now prior to Punisher being born. So the advantage of experience that Punisher normally has in spades verse physically superior foes goes to Wolverine who many times Punisher own vast experience.
Now we will view which combatant is the stealthiest. Punisher is very stealthy combatant. His stealth is due to the military training he has received from the Navy Seals, who focus on stealth to achieve objectives. His training in Special Forces also helps to aid in his ability to enter areas undetected, as well as his sniper training. He also honed his ability to sneak around unseen or heard through his experience in Vietnam. He has used his stealth in the past to attack Mafia without them knowing. Punisher though skilled in this art of stealth, he is still not the most effective combatant in this match at using it. Wolverine has been trained in a number of Black Opts groups, CIA, Team X, Spy and ect. He has honed his abilities to sneak around and had mastered it prior to Punisher birth. Logan has vastly more experience using stealth and has far more training within it art. His mastery of the ninja arts allows him to vanish from sight at will and remain unheard or detected. He has been able to sneak up undetected by individuals who retain superhuman senses, such as Daredevil, Ferral, Rough-houses, Blood Scream ect. He has even snuck into the Baxter building, as well as other highly guarded and monitors areas. Logan also has an advantage at stealth due to his superhuman senses, agility and animal side. This gives Logan a great advantage in stealth which would allow Logan a far better chance of getting to Punisher undetected then vice versa.
Now that we have gone over the abilities of the two combatants we can see that Logan holds the advantage in every area. Punisher normally has the advantage of skill, experience and military abilities when against an opponent of physical superiority. In this match up he holds none of those advantages and is actually at a disadvantage in those areas.
Punisher holds no advantages in this match up physically or ability wise. Punisher is in a disadvantage in all the area’s listed above and in many area’s at a large disadvantage. Punisher does hold two advantages in this fight which is range and prep time. He can attack from a fare while Logan is forced to go melee. Theses are not large enough advantages for Punisher to win the majority when he physically inferior and in every note worthy ability compared to Logan. I will discuss below.
This match takes place in a warehouse. Well that is very vague since there are many different types, sizes and shapes of warehouses.
I keep reading members of this board who are declaring that Punisher wins 6/10 or 8/10 and even 10/10 though I find there reasoning to be off.
-First reason I have heard is due to Punisher being granted an hour of Prep time.
I find it rather faulty logic to assume one wins simply due to prep time. Punisher is no Batman intellectually nor does he have close to the resources that Batman can accesses. Just because one is given prep does not mean they will win. People are forgetting the fact that Punisher since his Civil War arc has had almost all if not all of his armory destroyed. His secret bases were found by shield and the weapons were removed. Others were destroyed with the alien invasion. So we have a Punisher with an hour of prep, but who has a vastly depleted armor with out the accesses to many of the weapons he once could get, with only an hour to get weaponry and set him self up. That’s not a lot of time. Punisher not going to be able to gather heavy artillery that he would need, and he not going to have the ability to set up himself up properly with the time allowed. Given Punisher depleted arms and almost no time to get the fire power needed I find it odd that so many would uses the argument of “prep time” as if that some how automatically means Punisher wins when in truth he won’t be able to gain the weapons nor the time to set him self up completely.
-Then there is the fact that the arms Punisher would be able to gather are not more often then not able to put Logan down for the KO. Logan is not going to be put down by bullets unless some how they enter his brain and rip it apart. The odds of a bullet entering through the eye like it did while Logan is only facing the Punisher are extremely low. People are assuming Logan’s healing factor was down graded far below what it actually was. In Wolverine 61 Logan stated his healing factor had “not been this weak in years”. He said years which are some were between 2-9 years. However this upgrade occurred over a decade ago meaning his healing factor is of at least this level http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?...erinebc7ex0.jpg
-Now another thing people seem to ignore is the fact that Logan knows that he is going to face Punisher. He will suspect traps and being a trained Special Opt, spy, secret agent and so on he would know of the traps well before they were set. He has enter the Baxter building, Avengers, many military bases with out triggering an alarm he not going to fall for something Punisher creates in an hour. That not even adding in the fact Logan senses would pick up on any trap Punisher attempted to set. Not to mention the fact Logan would know the location of Punisher in the warehouse while Punisher can not say the same.
-Another reason I can not understand why people assume Punisher wins due to “1 hour of prep” time is, because they seem to simply assume that Punisher will somehow remain hidden and unseen, but Wolverine will be walking around like a moron. That Punisher will somehow know were Wolverine is at every moment, but Wolverine will not be able to know the location Punisher will be in.. This baffles me greatly. Logan senses allow him to track down mystique in 8 haft hours who could be any were in the world http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?...oesafterfm2.jpg http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?...findsherof5.jpg
and somehow not be able to locate Punisher who in a warehouse. What also does not make senses with that train of thought is the fact that Logan is far more stealthy then Punisher. Logan would have a far larger chance of ambushing Punisher then vice versa. Logan has been able to sneak up unnoticed by individuals like Daredevil, Ferral, Sabertooth, ect. All of the fallowing have superhuman senses and would be far harder to ambush then Punisher.
I still do not understand how this scan is irrelevant to Punisher beating Wolverine. I mean is Punisher all of a sudden going to have Logan out number and surrounded by mutant villains that have members within there ranks that are many times more powerful then himself to distract him with? Is Punisher some how going to have the power to make Logan start distracting himself by shouting orders? Is Punisher some how going to gain the power of superhuman accuracy to boot?
The final most used argument for Punisher winning the majority over Wolverine is that issue written by Ennis in which Wolverine, Daredevil and Spiderman attempt to track down and catch Punisher. There so many things that baffles me when people use this argument as evidences for Punisher winning.
-The first thing that baffles me is the fact some one actual thinks this is good evidence and that it accurately portrays Spiderman, Wolverine and Daredevil through out the arc.
-I mean did not any one notice how Logan’s and Spiderman’s intellect was portrayed to be that of a person with well below average intellect.
-Then there is the fact that powers were ignore constantly through out the arc. Example was Spiderman’s Spider sense, Wolverines superhuman senses and Daredevil radar and superhuman senses. They were looking for Punisher and yet none of them could sense him when he was 20 feet away.
The arc was simply PIS and some of the worst writing I have ever seen and it saddens me someone would try and use it as evidence.
-The next Part the baffles me as using it for evidence of Punisher beating Wolverine is the fact that Logan was never KO or beaten by Punisher.
-The last part of this argument for Punisher winning, due to that single arc is the fact it not even cannon any more.
-In Wolverine 186 it states that Punisher and Wolverines “last encounter ended with the mutant crushed under a steam roller”. This issue came out after the issue in which Spiderman, Wolverine and Daredevil try and capture Punisher. This means that the issue in which Wolverine, Daredevil, Spiderman try and catch Punisher has been reconnt not to have taken place.
So the last and most used argument by individuals who feel that Punisher wins was reconnt not to have taken place which means it never actually happen, meaning it not useable as evidence.
It's not that it's against Wolverine specifically... but he has said that he thinks superheroes are stupid and unrealistic. There's a reason why out of 3 calibur superheroes like Wolverine, Spiderman, and Daredevil, that DD was the only one out of thebunch who didn't look like a complete ass going up against Punisher.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
KMC Community Forums
Feb 22nd, 2008 10:15 AM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
