Not does it say they don't have poor character. Frankly, I don't think they have character at all, apart from battelfield character. I don't think Cody cared. He hands back his sabre because at that point he has to support Kenobi's actions. The next moment it changes and that's fine with him too.
I doubt they even have morals, they just do as they are told. "Befehl ist befehl". And that is the entire point of having clones: they only think for themselves when you tell them to. They are completely in the Emperor's control
No one is questioning their military prowess, its what they do best and its what they like to do. Clearly they can joke with eachother and they make up thier own minds just as much as any other military organization would today. Clones aren't going to dictate policy, its clear that they dictate part of the war planning as Cody showed before Utapau. They're in control of the Jedi just as much as the chancellor. They're not GIVEN the opportunity to exercise real choices. Watching the movies clearly shows this and is no reason to make up strange theories about "mind control" and other BS.
Where do you get this stuff??? Not from the movies, I never saw a Clone laugh.
They just follow orders, dude. They dictate only in the sense of military superiority.
There is... The Kaminoans clearly said they follow every order without question. That's a form of mind control, it certainly limits their ability to act on their own insights. They are designed to follow any order bu a superior. That's a form of mind control: their own will is a by definition inferior to the peopl in charge.
Jango never laughed, yet we saw him humorously mock Kenobi in AOTC. Similary, Remeber the scene before Kenobi lands on Utapau? Kenobi and Cody are clearly joking with eachother. Even Cody's "you might be needing this" is said with a clone-sense of humor and a smirk.
Clearly, if clones followed ANY order without question, the jedi could have ordered them to stop. Mundi certianly had plenty of time to give such an order. (I don't know why he didn't) They understand hierarchy of command.
In the movies, we rarely saw a clone outside of a military situation. Yet, when we do see them (taking of from Corsucant scene in III, they are conversing with eachother, gesturing. Clearly they are the droids you would have them be.
And as I've said, what we've seen is in military situations only. Therefore, you're trying to claim that military situations are the entirety of their existance. You can't make that claim. To prove that, you'd need to show them following an order outside of a military situation.
I am not saying they are droids. They have creativity which they apply in their tasks. Plus they cannot be shut down by pulling an electrical plug But their tasks ARE ONLY MILITARY... They serve no other purpose, the Kaminoans said so themselves: "They will make a fine army", not "they will have a great time when they're off duty".
And they are limited in what they can or cannot do. And I can prove it: canon sources only show them in military situations. There is no way of thinking these guys have spare time. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
And it's not as if they weren't genetically altered i.e. exact copies of Jango without change... after all, they grew 10 times faster, who knows what else is altered. They have no life experience outside the Clone Facility. They are not supposed to be 'regularly human'.
And of course they wouldn't listen to the Jedi when Order 66 was given: they were commanded by a higher power, a power higher up in the hierarchy, than the Jedi.
No. While they're in the damn army, you're only examining them in combat situations. I'm ignoring the craptastic show-off marching in AOTC. Looking at ROTS, at the times when they are NOT actively fighting (coruscant landing pad, pre-Utapau, downtime on Utapau, we see them functioning as normal humans.
Of course there are genetic alterations from the really dumbed down infantry to the souped up commandos (the highest cannon level of trooper) ARCs and possibly Nulls, whcih may or not become "canon" are souped up even more. The clones certianly have character and free thought outside of military situations. What your claiming as "mindlessness" could be interpreted in any command situaiton on Earth, let alone in SW. If you look at the larger picture, you're incorrect.
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Oh, this is all nonsense. it is extremely clear from the films that the Clones have no real free will. Their ability to socialise amongst themselves- which frankly, we don't see any more of in the films than we do with the battle droids- is meaningless, really; it doesn't make them any more real as people.
They are completely enslaved to the purpose for which they were created, They cannot lead lives of their own, and they obey orders from a superior absolutely and totally just as if they were a machine- they turn on their Jedi comrades without even a moment's hesitation; this is not the activity of a free-willed person, nor can it be compared to any real-life military set-up.
Thy may be biological, but effectively they are still robots.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 15th, 2008 at 07:16 PM
What Ush said. They are more resilient than droids though.
Where DO you get this information??? Not from canon sources!
Is there a "Favourite spare time tips when you're not fighting Guide for Clones" I missed out on?
Well, where do you get your information from that Clones have a sense of humour and character and free thought and spare time off from the military then? Give us a scene or a fragment from one of the canon novels. Because I never saw that.
First off, I don't even remeber the novels. Secondly, AS I"VE ALREADY POINTED OUT..they show humor in the films. That is reason to believe that they're like most other humans in most respects. You're simply assuming they can't. You can't make that assumption.
I'm not assuming anything... I simply don't SEE them having fun, drinks and buddy times in the movies. But please do point them out if I missed them. And especially I don't see them off duty, which for some reason I cannot imagine them having any either. They were MADE for warfare and that is what they do... that is what we SEE them do. We don't see them do anything else.
The films give no reason to believe they are anything more than simplified and ultra-trained soldiers. They can have a sense of humour, sure, but it is all subject to their main purpose: to fight.
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Ther battle droids show humour in the films as well. It's all a facsimile.
It's not as if the Clones cannot have a personality. There's no reason why they should not be capable of socialising and having the apperance of normal humans.
But in being totally subservient- and having no free will in the matter- and also being subject to a complete and radical change in their Galactic perception- 'Jedi are allies (and superiors)' straight to 'Jedi are enemies and must be killed with no mercy'- in one brief insant, without being able to engage any self-control or having any form of hesitation, doubt or second thought shows that they are not human in the sense we understand the term.
They weren't really created to be good guys to empathise with; indeed their creation is clearly portrayed on film as a bad thing. And their ultimate purpose is as an instrument of pure evil.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 19th, 2008 at 12:00 AM
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The clones aren't mind controlled in the fact that Palpatine controls everything they do. They have a concious will, that's what makes them beter than a droid army, because they can react to the unexpected, however they have a, for lack of a beter term, born instinct to follow orders without second thought, just like birds flying south every winter. It is an instinct that truly doesn't have any thought, they just do it. That is how they were made, they were born to be the perfect warriors, born to follow any order without thought or hesitation, that is why they immediately attaced the Jedi after order 66.
The Jedi had never shown any hostility twoard the Republic, and anyone who wasn't progammed to follow orders without a second thought wouldn't have attacked the Jedi so quickly. Remember: Cody and Obi-wan were good friends, but even that didn't stop Cody, didn't even make him hesitate to give the order: "Blast Him!"
Well, he does. But he doesn't have to. That's why he ahd clones instead of droids: they act on their own and can think creatively. But when Palpy explicitly wants them to do something... all they do is obey. Without question, without hesitation.
Mar 15th, 2008 02:40 PM
