the fact ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel
NO ONE in KOTOR has feats to suggest they are on Dooku's level in saber dueling and Anakin tooled him
also the fact Anakin has the power to colllapse entire buildings just by yeling and wildly exerting his Force power
we know by Traya's words that Sion is an idiot in terms of Force powers and knowledge
all he has is his durability
2. The idea that Anakin "tooled" him only exists within the invalid novelisation fight scene.
3. Sion's one hit takedown of a Force user as capable as Traya is far more impressive than Anakin's questionably legitimate defeat of Dooku.
No-one's denying that Anakin's raw power is beyond that of any other, which is exactly all that was: an unfocused release of his power. Doesn't change the fact that he can't control it (hell, the act almost killed him), and thus it's completely irrelevant for this scenario, which doesn't take into account uncontrolled releases of power, and even then, the destruction of a building with the force is hardly unprecedented.
It's left completely ambiguous as to exactly what Kreia was referring to when she declares that Sion had "learnt nothing." To claim that she was talking with respect to force knowledge requires evidence, and since when was Anakin's knowledge of the force anything other than minimal?
And you can't throw that up every time you don't have enough evidence to prove a point
Lightsnake and Gideon have shown numerous times in the past, the novelizations are perfectly canon.
I assume you're going to provide some kind of argument as to why cutting off the hand of an old women, one not none for close quarters combat, is in anyway impressive.
While I agree that the destruction of the building isn't exactly the most amazing display of power in the SW universe, it's certainly better than anything Sion can do. And he's got force feats beyond that of course,
Anakin's spent years training underneath one of the most respected Jedi of his time, and has been stated by different sources as being one of the most powerful Jedi alive. His knowledge is far from minimal. As for Sion, he has one, albeit powerful, ability to his name. One that doesn't even seem to stem from intensive study of the force, but just from learning to channel his own pain.
Hardly, it's one ability, take it away and he's little more than a nuisance to most. We don't even really understand a lot about how the technique works. For example, if he's decapitated, what then? Also, who's to say the ability can even work most of the time, every time we've seen him use it, he's been in a place where he's empowered by the darkside (Korriban and Malachor), and both times he specifically said the world itself was empowering him.
Noobaris, haven't you been banned enough?
Anyways, Sion couldn't get past the Exile's defenses so the Exile talked him to death. What the hell is Sion going to do against Anakin? As LS says, "he's not immortal if his head is off". He hasn't shown anything with a saber nor the force so there's no reason to believe he could compete with someone of Anakin's caliber, except for "Omgz he's invincible@@($"
Your original assertion: Anakin is better than Sion in everything but he can't kill him.
You made the claim, so it's up to you to undeniably prove it.
[part of] Your evidence: the fact ROTS Anakin defeated Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel
NO ONE in KOTOR has feats to suggest they are on Dooku's level in saber dueling and Anakin tooled him.
Essentially, you're saying that because he displayed something that there's no proof of Sion displaying, he's better than him.
Absence of proof =/= proof of absence, ergo your evidence does not undeniably prove your original assertion like it should have.
Your interpretation doesn't make it so. It was relatively even right up until the point that Anakin pulled an unorthodox manoeuvre on him. The fact that Anakin was the one on the offensive doesn't change that, seeing as his style is naturally more offensive than Dooku's
Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).
Prove it. The novel (the part that doesn't contradict the movie) disagrees.
Do it, I dare you!
Like what? All I've seen him perform (aside from the passive abilities such as enhancing physical attributes with the force, or precognition) is TK, the Jedi Mind Trick, and using the force to tame a wild animal.
Sion appeared in one game, and even then he was -- at best -- a supporting character, who rarely appeared. He's had less opportunity to display such knowledge, and even then, we do know that he was a practitioner of the Force bond severing technique, as well as a Master of the force camouflage ability, just as the entire sect of Sith Assassins were.
Nobody has to prove it because it's fact. YOU have to prove that Sion is better than Anakin, seeing as how he's shown no abilities besides his vague immortality.
And good old Noobaris strikes out again with his "absence of proof is not proof of absence argument". Seeing as how Anakin's abilities are factually above Sion's in saber combat and in the force, you have to prove that Sion is anywhere near HIS level. Since you can't, you lose yet another argument.
[quote\Your interpretation doesn't make it so. It was relatively even right up until the point that Anakin pulled an unorthodox manoeuvre on him. The fact that Anakin was the one on the offensive doesn't change that, seeing as his style is naturally more offensive than Dooku's[/quote]
Excuses and poor justifications don't change the fact that Anakin tooled Dooku.
Traya let Sion win. You bringing up this point only makes you look dumber than you already do.
Using the absence of proof clause as a shield is ridiculous. If Person X has not demonstrated the power/skill/knowledge/whatever of Person Y, and there are no canon sources, quotes, statements, stances, events that support the conclusion that Person X > Person Y, then Person Y is clearly greater. The absence of proof clause doesn't change that. This is still logical deduction.
Physical attributes mean little when the Force is concerned, as can be seen with Yoda, and the majority of old aged Force users.
Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).
Irrelevant misdirection. Her lightsaber prowess would have only been a factor if they exchanged blows, and if Sion had defeated her through superior technique (such as: drawing her saber away from where he dealt the killing blow through a complex manoeuvre, or finding her balance point and using it to his advantage etc.). That's not what happened; Sion defeated her in one move, by moving far quicker than she could react to, and defend against (where speed and reflexes would have been the only relevant factors on her part -- both of which would logically be extremely impressive, given her extraordinary force ability, and the fact that the two attributes are mostly powered through the Force).
Better than cheating death, something completely unprecedented?
You're doing a poor job at arguing from personal incredulity.
Like what exactly?
Which is a false conclusion.
Jedi are respected for their deeds, wisdom, and character. Not their force knowledge, and you can gain power without knowledge (refinement, and force strength best lead to power).
All force abilities are drawn from the same power source: the Force, and the potency of each one varies with the user's ability with the Force. Meaning, the excellence behind his force-powered durability speaks for his overall ability.
Read the above.
We know that it made the Exile's lightsaber effectively useless, we know that it could withstand a full on onslaught from Darth Nihilus, and we know that it goes beyond just being resistant to tangible damage, but also attacks such as the Force bond severing technique.
For all we know, his ability to hold his body together would prevent such a thing from happening. As said, the Exile's lightsaber was pretty much useless against him, and I don't recall Sion having lost any limbs during the battle.
What he actually said is that the darkside of the world empowered him. Assuming that the setting here is neutral, the Planet would have a balance of both the light side and the dark side within it.
Which is why one response is enough and if he fails to elucidate on new material, proof, or suggestion of evidence for his claims, it's best to make it clear that it's not enough to warrant a response. I'd happily debate him if he didn't do shit like using the "absence of proof" clause as a shield when he can't prove a point or toss out the ambiguity status to a statement that he doesn't like. Those things can't be reasoned with.
I have to go to work soon, so I'll only respond to a couple of points before I leave, I'll be back though.
Check out Dark Rendezvous sometime, the character scout is said to be somewhat weak in the force, yet also is noted at having a talent for battle pre-cog, allowing her to compete with stronger fighters in lightsaber combat. This goes to show that there isn't necessarily a connection between a persons force enhanced reflexes and their relative power with the force, as you claim. It's a technique that can be refined like any other.
What's more, even if there were, your own logic defeats itself. If Traya apparently posses great pre-cog due to her force ability than Anakin would, proportionally speaking, be able to see Sion's attacks a day ahead of time.
You know, Gideon is right, you are an intelligent debater, makes me wonder why you waste all your time trolling. Seriously, arguing gameplay mechanics? Malak didn't have visible injuries on him at the end of kotor 1, are we to assume then that Malak is also lightsaber resistant? And the scene with Nihilus was cut, ergo not canon, so drop the point.
Mar 1st, 2008 04:51 AM
