No, we're saying the Phoenix Force is no mutant, it's an essential part of the universe, unfathomable energy. Jean is just a powerful mutant. Kid Omega was a phoenix at one point as well.
So then why pointing out that the PF is no mutant, when the non-corporeal PF is not free to be chosen anyway? It's about Jean as Phoenix, and it IS her mutation that gives her access to the PF. Yes, Quentin and others have/will have/potentially have also access to it - and? It's like pointing out there are many mutants with acces to the astral plane, or many mutants who can harness cosmic radiation, or many mutants who have access to other dimensions.
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THE CORPS IS FATHER
Last edited by wannabe on May 4th, 2009 at 11:32 AM
Franklin is a mutant. and powerful too. someone that can create other realities next to the one theyre standing in terrasect spaces and create those terrasect spaces as well is pretty up there.
the Phoenix thing let me put it this way. Jean Grey has her own powers and is a mutant. The Phoenix is another entity all together and is "jacking" her up so to speak. It would be like rating Wolverine as he was the horseman of Death. Jean is also an Alpha level mutant, not an Omega.
In fact most of the mutants in the poll dont even belong there.
here some that dont
Cable
Jean
Dark Phoenix (same character as above)
Racheal Summers
Storm
Rogue
heres some that do
Darwin
X-Man
Selene
Iceman
Dazzler
Quentin Quire
Franklin Richards
Stryfe
Mr. Immortal
Mr.M (deceased)
Chamber (depowered)
James Jaspers
Jamie Braddock
Vulcan
Scarlet Witch
Shadow King
Franklin Richards is the most powerful mutant hands down.
Legion
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
thats stretching the truth. Jeans "power" is not to host the Phoenix Force. The PF is A SEPARATE ENTITY...OK. It would be the same if
Shadow King possesed Wolverine, which he's cabable of. This would not make Wolverine the most powerful mutant, nor would it imply that because he was capable of being a host he was therefore the entity nor as powerful as it himself. think Charles wearing Cerebro here (though as BA as he his since his ressurection i doubt he needs it anymore)
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
Franklin and Jaspers are probably the two top dogs, with Jamie following behind. And Mr.M isn't dead, he's just, not there anymore. Remember, he left that message that said some things don' die, they evolve. And if he evolves any furhter, he might well be at Jaspers level.
have to agree with the above, Franklin then Jaspers.
potentially they could be even, but Franklins had larger showings and he's still a kid. Squirrel Girl gets honorable mention of course.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
It's not at all stretching the truth. It's established canon that Jean and the Phoenixforce are one and the same (see Phoenix: Endsong). She is the PF gone corporeal. Furthermore it is stated that the ultimate mutation is the ability to access the PF.
Being able to be possessed by Shadowking is not an innate genetically determined ability of anyone, neither is using Cerebro, but in order to successfully merge with the PF you need a certain genetic makeup, that only certain omega mutants (Jean, Rachel, Quentin, ...) have DUE to their mutation.
__________________
THE CORPS IS MOTHER
THE CORPS IS FATHER
having the genetic makeup to access to host an entity does not make one the entity itself.
Jean Grey and The Phoenix force are not the same entity!
Jean Grey is also not classified as an Omega level mutant she is in fact classified as an ALpha, which neither matters to the abiltiy to host the Phoenix Force or anything else. do you actyually even know the definitions? its not even an actaul recognised scale, its a coined catch phrase used in a few comics, it has no overall relevance to the characters and did not exsist anytime near their origins. in Phoenix: Endsong Jean and The Phoenix Force where not the same being and in fact acted against each other directly, like when it was taunting her about losing Cyclops for example.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
I am actually a little surprised. Almost everything about your post is as wrong as it gets?!
1. Yes, having the fitting genetic makeup to access the PF doesn't automatically make one the PF itself - that only applies to Jean Grey. Nonetheless, being able to successfully merge with the PF is part of a mutant genetic anomaly, making it a valid mutant ability, which was my initial point.
2. In "Phoenix: Endsong", when Wolverine asks her whether he's speaking to Jean or the Phoenix, she explains to him that she's always Jean and also the Phoenix, that she (not it!) died and was broken into countless pieces, that it was too early for her resurrection because she (not it!) still misses some pieces. Furthermore the deranged PF-fragment in Emma Frost became irritated by the fact that the resurrected Jean was able to stand up against it though it was supposedly not part of her. Jean reminds it of the fact that she could, because she and it are one and the same, that it is but a missing piece of her.
3. The term "omega level mutant" was first seen in the 1986 issue Uncanny X-Men #207 (Rachel became identified as such by Nimrod, if i recall correctly), but was completely unexplained (beyond the obvious implication of it referring to an exceptional level of power). The term resurfaced in the 2001 limited series "X-Men Forever". In this series, and thus in the whole Marvel universe, the first ones to be identified as omega level mutants with an explanation about what it means were Jean Grey and Iceman. Since then the term has often been referred to on panel.
__________________
THE CORPS IS MOTHER
THE CORPS IS FATHER
Last edited by wannabe on May 14th, 2009 at 06:08 PM
and this changes the fact of how Jean is classified how?
Jean is powerful not the most.
The Phoenix Force is uber. Jean is not the Phoenix force. she was born
a looooooooooooooong time afterwards. also, it has other shared hosts.
so are they all the most powerful mutant then by your logic?
actually my post was correct. your is a copy of a wikipedia entry.
-10 points to you.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
read that. try not to add little things in a twist new things out of it, just read what is there. thats a direct copy of what was in the last entry
for The Phoenix Force in The Official Marvel Handbooks. this isnt a matter of opinion. Marvels right, your wrong. deal with it.
Jean is not one of the most powerful mutants. she is not rated as an Omega-level mutant, and definatly not because you decide she is, contrary to what Marvel published in plain English. she is classified as an ALpha, for the reason that she is flawed. i provided you a link that
gives the definition of mutant classes earlier. by your statement you didnt read it. none of this means Jean sucks. I f you feel it does and have a problem with it, perhaps you either lack faith in your characer
or are too emotionally attached to someone who is fictional. in anycase, if its this hard for you to accept what Marvel themseelves made, then write them about it.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
Our particular discussion (at least on my behalf) was not about who is the most powerful mutant, but about whether Jean as Phoenix can be counted as a mutant or not.
Yes, Jean was naturally born a long time after the PF, so what? The PF had hosts before her and after her, but since Endsong it is canon, that Jean is not just a host like Rachel or Quentin, but the PF gone corporeal.
Your assumption of my "supposed" logic is rather shortsighted. First - it's not my logic at all. Second - each host can access the PF to a different degree, so no, they are not automatically bound to be equally powerful.
Yes a part of what i posted in my last comment was from wiki - because it was correct and i didn't saw the sense in wasting time to rephrasing something that is correct in the first place.
Why do you feel the need to get condescending? Until now i thought we had a mature discussion here?!
So you prefer "handbook-evidence" over "on-panel-evidence" - fine - nonetheless i recommend you read the last sentences of the article you yourself linked here, or (even better) you read Phoenix: Endsong again and pay particular attention to what Jean and Wolverine are discussing as well as to what Jean and the Phonix-fragment in Emma are discussing.
It's never been and never will be my part to decide any classification of Jean's mutant level. I can only strongly suggest you read the series "X-Men Forever", where the term omega level mutant was explained by Charles Xavier for the first time, with Iceman and Jean being the second and third mutant (Rachel in Uncanny X-Men #207 being the first) labeled as such.
1. Again i don't see the need to get dismissive!!!
2. So me providing you with information from wiki that uses precise references to particular comic books results in "-10 points" for me, but you providing me with a link to wiki information, who are simply fan based assumptions, is perfectly ok???
Btw: Even the wiki link you provided (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Omega_...#Classification) to prove me wrong says Jean is an Omega level mutant ... didn't you read it in advance?
And i quote (from YOUR link): "All Omega mutants are also Alpha mutants but not all Alpha mutants are Omega mutants. For example Jean Grey is an Alpha mutant because of her power and lack of flaws and is also an Omega mutant because of how powerful she is."
__________________
THE CORPS IS MOTHER
THE CORPS IS FATHER
Last edited by wannabe on May 17th, 2009 at 02:02 PM
said she was both. Alpha and Omega. thats what the link states as well. again, Omega doesnt mean much. Elixer is an Omega.
anyways, thats great and all, but Jean isnt the most powerful mutant, which is the question posed here.
the Phoenix Force, not a mutant, is one of the if not the most powerful cosmic entities.
Jean being able to house the Phoenix Force, which as we saw in the White Hot Room is one of many, is no more a power standard than Storm being able to house Eternity.
Jean Grey is not the most powerful MUTANT. powerful character is debatable, mutant no.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
Gender: Male Location: +40° 36' 5.70", -73° 57' 49.46
Wow! such misinformation going on in this thread.... it seems by both sides.....and how does a poster.. post a link to info...and not even read it...then blow it off as nothing?
! Rachael according to the majority is not an omega level mutant...the argument was...that way before..... a nimrod assesment of a level of threat...was and is not a clarification of her status as per charles xavier...do i agree..maybe..but you wont find many who will take rachael as a omega level mutant
2 Jean grey is an omega level mutant...no if and's or but's!
OH my ... i guess now it's my turn to be condescending: It's not worth the time discussing this issue with someone who's is as uninformed and cognizance resistant as you are.
You are right with these. Rachael has not rightfully been confirmed as an omega like Xavier defined the term, it's only Nimrod's statement, her heritage, the fact that she's been described as having unlimited telepathic potential and her ability to host the PF, that strongly hint she is. Again: admittedly no real but very strong circumstantial proof.
__________________
THE CORPS IS MOTHER
THE CORPS IS FATHER
Last edited by wannabe on May 27th, 2009 at 06:24 PM
yes, i did read it...neither of you did which is a little silly since its only a couple short paragraphs long...
any questions. you can feel free to remove your foots from your mouths now if you wish.
__________________ "We are turning into a nation of whimpering slaves to Fear—fear of war, fear of poverty, fear of random terrorism, fear of getting down-sized or fired because of the plunging economy, fear of getting evicted for bad debts or suddenly getting locked up in a military detention camp on vague charges of being a Terrorist sympathizer."
-Hunter S. Thompson
—"Extreme Behavior in Aspen," February 3, 2003
wait i am confused, i looked up mutants classified as alpha, jean grey is not among them, but you just say she is both alpha and omega or is it implied that since she is omega that she is alpha?? please do not get mad at me, i just do not understand the classification.
"....All Omega mutants are also Alpha mutants but not all Alpha mutants are Omega mutants. For example Jean Grey is an Alpha mutant because of her power and lack of flaws and is also an Omega mutant because of how powerful she is...."
as quoted by CATMANEXE.
__________________ Still looking for that sig....
In the mean time, I never DID see that anime where I unintentionally got my name from. Is it any good
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