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The Presence against The Heart of the Infinite
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Enyalus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by fangirl101
And the great evil beast stalemated the ultimate light. Show me where either one was the presence.

Then, by your logic, The Presence isn't absolutely omnipotent, either. Because there is an Ultimate Light. And do you know what ultimate means? There can't be two ultimates.

So if GEB wasn't battling The Presence, The Presence doesn't have absolute omnipotence either.

I can play word games, too.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:19 PM

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fangirl101
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Enyalus
Then, by your logic, The Presence isn't absolutely omnipotent, either. Because there is an Ultimate Light. And do you know what ultimate means? There can't be two ultimates.

So if GEB wasn't battling The Presence, The Presence doesn't have absolute omnipotence either.

I can play word games, too.

Play word games with this. That was vertigo. That's number one.

Number two. The Ultimate Light and the GEB were both aspects of something greater.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:20 PM

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Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

Nice scans but the word omnipotent is getting thrown around a lot.

I see, so it's only properly used when referring to DC's world.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

If we want to talk about true omnipotence
then we're talking about the supreme god of the Marvel U and that's TOAA.

No we're not, we're talking about many characters that possess true omnipotence.

In Marvel Comics, there are levels of Infinity: (omnipotence specifically)

(please log in to view the image)

Again, TOAA draws Supreme beings into existence,
being the Supreme being of the Marvel Universe means nothing to TOAA,
because it's TOAA that creates all that.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

If this Supreme being has a rival in HOTI then he can't truly be absolutely omnipotent as such a rivalry goes against the idea of absolute omnipotence. That an artifact outside of himself can contend with his power means that he isn't trully omniscient.

Addressed.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

The Presence has no such problems, with artifacts or with other entities.
He is the alpha and the omega, first and last, no power can contend with him in the DCU.

The Living Tribunal spins the Alpha & Omega in his hand.

Also, THOTI had no problems, with artifacts or with other entities.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:23 PM

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vansonbee
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by fangirl101
Play word games with this. That was vertigo. That's number one.

Number two. The Ultimate Light and the GEB were both aspects of something greater.

Vertigo > Presence/GEB in DCU?

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:23 PM

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by vansonbee
Vertigo > Presence/GEB in DCU?

geb doesn't exist with in the DCU.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:26 PM

Mr Master
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

How can THOTI be what God is?

Ask Marvel.

I'm only conveying what Marvel Comics has depicted and confirmed in their Handbooks.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

Given that in essence it's just an artifact?

I never knew that, please show me where this is stated and/or depicted.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Allankles

So you're saying the LT is the one that occupies God's position within Marvel every other time?

Basically.

There has been an anomaly or two that has appeared on panel as being able to challenge the LT,
one of them was in the Future, so that doesn't count, and the other is THOTI, and it doesn't exist.

So yea, currently and for ever now in continuity, the LT is the top dog,
at-least until the 31st century.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:29 PM

Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
I see, so it's only properly used when referring to DC's world.

It doesn't get thrown around so easily in DC. You only need a dictionary to know that using the word omnipotence for LT and the like isn't correct.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, TOAA draws Supreme beings into existence,
being the Supreme being of the Marvel Universe means nothing to TOAA,
because it's TOAA that creates all that.

Ok. So what does HOTI have to do with being the Supreme being in the MU? So TOAA (who's influence is mentioned in universe) created HOTI? Which means as far the MU is concerned he's the Supreme Authority. Of course this wouldn't matter if the TOAA wasn't in-universe.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:30 PM

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Mr Master
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..........................................................................

Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)

Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................

=========== SUPREME BEING =============

..........................................................................

And GOD!

.................................................................................

Official Marvel Handbook as well:

(please log in to view the image)

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................

=========== GOD =============

.............................................................................

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:32 PM

Mr Master
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......................................................................................

King Thor agrees that Thanos does in fact possess "The Supreme Power" ...

(please log in to view the image)

"Thanos has usurped the Power Supreme,
and now reigns over All Reality"

......................................................................................

So did Eternity:

(please log in to view the image)

"Relinquish the Supreme Power you have stolen"

......................................................................................

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:32 PM

Mr Master
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......................................................................................

I'd like to know something though,
what do you make of this?

......................................................................................

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook 2006 - LT - bio)
(please log in to view the image)

"The Living Tribunal's ONLY superior is TOAA"

......................................................................................

Logic dictates that ONLY TOAA or a power = to or superior could defeat the LT:

(please log in to view the image)

LT gets stomped!

......................................................................................

We know Thanos has "someone's" power,
there's no denying that, I'm sure you'll agree.

And if according to Marvel,
the ONLY power above the Living Tribunal's is TOAA's,
who's power do you believe Thanos has?

..................................................................................................

The rest of this evidence below,
simply solidifies the scans right above:

..................................................................................................

(please log in to view the image)

Thanos says:

"Eternity, you must sense that Everything the Almighty was I now am,

did you ever dare demand anything from Him"

Eternity responds,

"No, but" .... (Eternity is actually acknowledging that Thanos speaks the truth)

..................................................................................................

(please log in to view the image)

"And I, like He was, am now the Author of All That Will Be ...

my Will is Supreme"

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:33 PM

fangirl101
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usurped the Power Supreme.

Supreme power?

God's power?
Omnipotent power?
Doesn't say so.
My will is supreme? And yet he says that he was used? Hmm.
Since only that only the TOAA or his power can defeat the Lt, then how come Proteus was able to over ride him? proteus is God?

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Last edited by fangirl101 on Oct 12th, 2008 at 09:37 PM

Oct 12th, 2008 09:34 PM

Mr Master
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Location: somewhere within time & space

.............................................................................

THOTI is:

(please log in to view the image)

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"

.............................................................................

It made Thanos "SUPREME"

(please log in to view the image)

.............................................................................

It made Thanos Everything ... of All things in the Marvel Omniverse:

................................................................................

(please log in to view the image)

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"

...............................................................................

Indeed!

(please log in to view the image)

"I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality" (the ENTIRE Marvel Universe)

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:36 PM

Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
..........................................................................

Here's Thanos' 2008 bio: (at the bottom)

Excerpt from Thanos' own Bio:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Thanos

" ... Known as the Heart of the Universe,
from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates,
and thereby gained infinite power ...

... Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power,
would be to destroy the universe
and become the One true Supreme Being ... "

..........................................................................

=========== SUPREME BEING =============

..........................................................................

And GOD!

.................................................................................

Official Marvel Handbook as well:

(please log in to view the image)

"Thanos eradicated the Order, they ... Pronounced him GOD" ...

.............................................................................

=========== GOD =============

.............................................................................

I appreciate the scans, but I'm talking about the TOAA's influence in universe. If he influenced and is referenced in universe then it is he who is the Supreme Authority. Much as the Presence is the Supreme Authority in the DCU. TOAA in the MU brought forth HOTI, so he's the supreme authority in MU (as I think you stated).

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:36 PM

Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
.............................................................................

THOTI is:

(please log in to view the image)

"The Source from which all other power throughout Time & Space springs"

.............................................................................

It made Thanos "SUPREME"

(please log in to view the image)

.............................................................................

It made Thanos Everything ... of All things in the Marvel Omniverse:

................................................................................

(please log in to view the image)

"How dare these cretins defy their Supreme Being?

Was I not Now the End-All and Be-All of Reality?

Their very existence was by My Whim"

...............................................................................

Indeed!

(please log in to view the image)

"I was Everything ... bonded to Omni-Reality" (the ENTIRE Marvel Universe)

But who brought HOTI into existence? The TOAA right? The same thing the Presence does, of course he hasn't created things like HOTI in the DCU only the Source (which is the universal expression of energy in the dcu).

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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:39 PM

Mr Master
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Jim Starlin (Writer/Creator of "The End: Marvel")

===================================

Jim Starlin interview:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ulti...mp;amp;t=000382

(scroll to the middle)

"Thanos and the resurrected Pharaoh Akhenaten compete for the ultimate power"

"Figured if I was going to kill off the entire Marvel Universe
it ought to be the real thing"

===================================

===================================

Another Jim Starlin (creator/writer of "The End: Marvel") interview:

Jim Starlin states ... Thanos: "basically he was God" (first paragraph)

http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

===================================

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:40 PM

fangirl101
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basically god? There you go with that again.

Not thanos was god. Basically.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:41 PM

Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master
Jim Starlin (Writer/Creator of "The End: Marvel")

===================================

Jim Starlin interview:

http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ulti...mp;amp;t=000382

(scroll to the middle)

"Thanos and the resurrected Pharaoh Akhenaten compete for the ultimate power"

"Figured if I was going to kill off the entire Marvel Universe
it ought to be the real thing"

===================================

===================================

Another Jim Starlin (creator/writer of "The End: Marvel") interview:

Jim Starlin states ... Thanos: "basically he was God" (first paragraph)

http://www.adelaidecomicsandbooks.com/starlin.html

===================================

And who was responsible for HOTI? It was just an artifact, it didn't just come into existence in-universe by itself.

__________________

Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:42 PM

Mr Master
Junior Member

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by fangirl101

Susurped the Power Supreme.

Supreme power?

God's power?
Omnipotent power?
Doesn't say so.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by fangirl101

My will is supreme?
And yet he says that he was used? Hmm.

Right, used by the guy who's drawing the comic book. smile

As if the Presence is a drawing, or idea that speaks for itself. laughing out loud

No, the Presence,
and everything else withIN that company is subject to the whims of writers/artists.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by fangirl101

Since only that only the TOAA or his power can defeat the Lt,
then how come Proteus was able to over ride him? proteus is God?

Nah, Proteus is located in a Future that won't arrive for another 1000 years.

In the current Marvel Universe, the LT is second to TOAA.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:44 PM

fangirl101
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The Presence is infinite and Eternal and cannot be destroyed. The same cannot be said of the heart. thus they are not equals. Period.

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Oct 12th, 2008 09:45 PM

Allankles
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

Right, used by the guy who's drawing the comic book.

As if the Presence is a drawing, or idea that speaks for itself.

No, the Presence,
and everything else withIN that company is subject to the whims of writers/artists.

You can't make the comparison since TOAA is a presence within MU. He is a fixture of the MU as the Presence is with the DCU. In the DCU the Presence is the Supreme authority, the writer isn't a fixture or presence within the DCU which means the Presence occupies that role without the out-of-universe connotations.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mr Master

In the current Marvel Universe, the LT is second to TOAA.

Which again means that TOAA is the Supreme Authority in the MU.

__________________

Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Oct 12th, 2008 09:50 PM

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