I think that syfo-dias or whatever we are calling dooku now, placed the order. They new about the republic and the council because the republic is over 4000 years old. I didn't say they were all alone in the world, just that it doesn't look like they've had news from the outside world for a bit.
I actually don't think so. I'm sure the kaminoans have space travel (in fact, i'm positive) but it looks like they are very introversive.
I don't think they would know if he was a public figure or not. Once again, its been maybe a couple of years since the order was placed and just now dooku is stirring stuff up? plus they are pretty secluded for nobody exept dax to have heard of them.
I'm pretty sure they are.
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
What indicates that the Kaminoans were missing out on events on the outside. Yeah, they keep to themselves - but what makes you think they wouldn't know about current events? Or why they wouldn't know who Dooku was?
ESPECIALLY once the Clone Wars erupts, Dooku is the face of the enemy to the Republic. The clones they grow fight him.
Wouldn't the Kaminoans recognize "Sifo-Dyas"? Who supposed to be dead AND oddly he's fighting the Clone Army he once commissioned...?
The Kaminoans never said peep - we know that because the Republic wouldn't have used the clones if they knew they were part of Dooku's (by now, a revealed Sith Lord) plot.
The Kaminoans would have to have been in on it if Dooku ordered the army.
The Kaminoans were neutral.
Count Dooku couldn't have impersonated Sifo-Dyas. He would have been eventually recognized. It has to be that Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas actually placed the order like the Kaminoans said.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Some things are clear: Dooku=Tyrannus. So Dooku employed Jango. But how did the order get placed and who decided to use Jango 10 or 20 years earlier? A 'Sifo-Dyas' apparently made the order 20 years before. The clones were ten years old (double the speed for growing up, Boba is about 10). So what happened in the 10 years in between, or was the order issued 10 years after Sifo-Dyas' death?
Now technically, Dooku or Palpy could have presented themselves as Syfo-Dyas. An info check would confirm Dyas was on the council. But who it was and how that would influence the rest of the story is a complete blank. It's not so much a plot hole, as it is evidence Lucas has no clue to write a detective story. Which makes AOTC so lame in respect to ROTS where no answers are presented to this mystery. And lame old Yoda can't figure it out either.
Then there is the issue of deleting the files in de Jedi Archives. One: what's the point of deleting a system from the archives when the average bar owner downtown knows it exists. It's like: let's delete Vietnam from the maps, so no one will find out what the yanks did there 30 years ago. A bit silly...
Then who did the erasing. If it really takes a Jedi then both Palpy and Dooku are off the list of suspects. Palpy because he's no Jedi, Dooku because he's no Jedi anymore and it's safe to assume as his access priviliges to the Jedi Archives are retracted. Plus, a famous Jedi like Dooku would most immediately be recognised, unless he had a crowney boy inside. Again: Lucas raises questions he doesn't answer and that don't stand even the lightest form of scrutiny. It all comes down to bad writing in the end. If you can't write a proper mystery story, don't even start going that way. A lot of smoke and fireworks that don't amount to anything nor have any impact on the progression of the story. In the end: why would we care HOW the clones got ordered, the fact that they are made to be an army is what counts. And yet, the majority of AOTC is used to unravel a mystery that never gets unraveled. Bweeerk...
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
I just can't believe with all the people surrounding George Lucas - on that team working on the ROTS - NO ONE thought to suggest, "Maybe you should tie up some loose strings from the last film...like, the plot."
I mean, it's just a horrible sequel-jump. There's gotta be a reason somewhere for dropping that aspect out of ROTS.
I know there's the book - but I'm sure they dropped it from ROTS and then put it in the book.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
No, what I'm getting at is that everyone can be the one that ordered the clones. Dooku could have said "Hi, I'm Sifo-Dyas, member of the Jedi Council. Gimme some droids." Palpatine could have done the same even Yoda or who ever wanted it to happen. You've got a name, that's all.
Why? Kamino is in the Outer Rim beyond the Richie Maze... I doubt they know or care about how Sifo-Dyas looks like. If we would meet and you say "Hi, I'm Bob", I take it you're named Bob and I don't go checking your ID to make sure you're not lying.
Impersonating has nothing to do with it: Sifo-Dyas died "almost 10 years ago" while the gap between TPM & AOTC is 10 years. Again, this doesn't mean that Sifo-Dyas was alive when the clones were ordered: Obi-Wan said "well, it's around 10 years ago... 9 years, 10 months, 3 days... or 8 years 11 months and 24 days... or even 10 years, 8 months and 6 days."
The only thing the impersonator (if it is one of course) had to do was to make sure the money seemed to come from the Jedi. When that's done, the Kaminoans wouldn't even give less (if possible) that it's for the Jedi or not. (I think Dexx explained that when he said the Kaminoans are friendly if you're pocketbook is thick)
Indeed: the fact is that he does not know the NAME Sifo-Dyas. Again, Obi-Wan hasn't given a description of how Sifo-Dyas looked like so Jango doesn't know for a fact that he has met or hasn't met Sifo-Dyas. He judges by the name. (again, he could be lying and indeed have heard of Sifo-Dyas)
No, to recapulate: I suggest that Sifo-Dyas could be anyone ranging from Sifo-Dyas himself over Tyranus to even Yoda! You've got a name and because the name is linked to a person, you think it means something while it doesn't.
Jango doesn't care about how it is... he gets a handsome reward for being the template, for training the guys AND in the mean time he can still take a job for extra cash.
Again: you've got a name. You've got two choices: either Dooku is Sifo-Dyas or he isn't. And again: I highly doubt the Kaminoans give a damn: if the pocketbook is thick enough, they're happy.
No, and again: the only facts are
1) that "Sifo-Dyas" ordered the clones.
2) There was this Jedi on the Jedi Council that went by that name
3) we don't know if it's a common name in the galaxy or not
4) we don't know how Sifo-Dyas looked like
5) we don't know how the Sifo-Dyas who ordered the clones, looked like
In short: you've got a name and draw conclusions from it while you simply can't.
And to support some things other posters have said:
Like Dexx said in the movie: "These Kaminoans... keep to themselves." Indeed, they are introvert and don't seek contact with others.
Again: someone placed the order and you simply don't know who. If it indeed was Dooku 10 years ago he wasn't a known separatist. He leaves the Jedi Order because of the death of Qui-Gon which happened 10 years before AOTC. IF it was Dooku: he could have done it while he was still a Jedi (and thus set up a "real" Jedi account so the Kaminoans thought it was ok); OR while he had JUST left the order (he's a count, he can afford it out of his own pocketbook) OR when he joined the Sith (if there is no overlap)
This means: he was either "just a Jedi" or "just a Jedi (who had just left the order)". You can't assume that people as far as on Kamino knows who's a Jedi and who's not, who has left the order and who has not and who forms the (at that point extremely young) separatist movement (IF it already existed at that point!).
Afterwards, they wouldn't care less: If it was Dooku and he gets known on Kamino; you have the following facts: He indeed is a Jedi, he used a fake name (so what? First thing he would have said about the order was to keep it a secret so it's logic he would use a fake name), the order is still to deliver the clones to the jedi... nothing much has changed for the Kaminoans.
__________________ Kyuzo: Don't you see? A real sword will kill you. Mr. Earl Brooks: If I were here to kill you, you would already be dead. Mercedes: My mother told me to be wary of Fauns. Mr. Le Chiffre: No, I believe in a reasonable rate of return. James Bond: Now the whole world will know you died while you were scratching my balls!
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Okay, so what you're saying is that anyone could've ordered the clones.
True. It could have been Aunt Beru, but the Kaminoans said a leading member of the Jedi Counsel named Sifo-Dyas placed the order at the request of the Senate for the Republic. Don't you think someone using THAT cover would know that eventually it would be investigated? Yoda went to Kamino to check out the clones. What he learned - we'll never know. But he took the clones.
You also pointed out that logic and common sense doesn't apply to the Kaminoans because they don't care who you are as long as you got the money.
They were isolationists. I don't think they would decide to destroy the galaxy because of a fat check.
Again, Jango has no idea who Sifo-Dyas is. Jango is completely in the dark when it comes to the ordering of the clones. He was hired to be a template and do a job. He knows his objective - that's all he needs to know.
Sifo-Dyas was Sifo-Dyas...
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Last edited by Anakin_the_Hutt on Dec 6th, 2008 at 01:27 PM
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
As far as the dates for the ordering of the clones - it goes like this:
"Master Sifo-Dyas was killed, almost 10 years ago." That's Obi-Wan to Lama Su.
When Obi-Wan reports back to Yoda and Mace he says, "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost 10 years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that."
The hell is that?
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Last edited by Anakin_the_Hutt on Dec 6th, 2008 at 01:46 PM
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
The order had to have been placed 10 years ago. Boba is 10 years old.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
No, I indeed don't think that. As said earlier: the Kaminoans don't care: they're friendly if you pay them well. We can safely assume that who ever ordered the clones did that since they kept working on the project for 10 years.
They really have something better to do than to check who is on the Jedi Council and who isn't.
As said: if in the end, it turns out to be Dooku who did it: so what? The Kaminoans will think: He is indeed a Jedi, perhaps he bragged and lied a bit to sound more "cool" to them (or whatever). So we have nothing to worry about.
If it wasn't Dooku the point still remains: they don't care. They get payed, that's all that matters. That is explicitly said by Dexx!
Possibly. And in fact, they didn't destroy the galaxy... Like some saying goes: it's not the bullet that kills, it's the finger that pulls the trigger. They made the clones, how they are used is not their choice. This is not just Star Wars logic, it's reality. That's how weapon producers say to sleep better at night: they provide protection, if it's misused it's not their fault.
__________________ Kyuzo: Don't you see? A real sword will kill you. Mr. Earl Brooks: If I were here to kill you, you would already be dead. Mercedes: My mother told me to be wary of Fauns. Mr. Le Chiffre: No, I believe in a reasonable rate of return. James Bond: Now the whole world will know you died while you were scratching my balls!
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
If in the end it was Dooku - so what?
If they know they are building nukes for a nuclear war - they're destroying the galaxy. The Kaminoans weren't bad guys. If they knew Dooku was Sifo-Dyas; that would make them accomplises to Sidious' plot to irradicate the Jedi and topple galactic freedom.
MAYBE the guy who said he was Sifo-Dyas...was Sifo-Dyas, and when Yoda went to get the clones - MAYBE somehow he confirmed it and then accepted the clones.
But then we are left with the question of "why" did Sifo-Dyas order the army in the first place. The answer was never given in the films.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
they just got payed to do a job. Its like a knife manufacturer. Sure the knife might be used to mug someone, but it might also be used to create a delicious meal. They are just doing their job. Ask questions, and your 2trillion dollar contract goes poof. ;[
as I have said before and Knightfa11 right above me: they made the means, they have nothing to do with the cause.
They made clones & trained them... so what? They're not the one ordering them to go and shoot off civilians/battledroids/... . As said numerous times: they did it for the money.
And indeed: what if it has been Dooku? Or Sifo-Dyas? The answer stays the same: then it was him and no one else. It doesn't matter in the end.
__________________ Kyuzo: Don't you see? A real sword will kill you. Mr. Earl Brooks: If I were here to kill you, you would already be dead. Mercedes: My mother told me to be wary of Fauns. Mr. Le Chiffre: No, I believe in a reasonable rate of return. James Bond: Now the whole world will know you died while you were scratching my balls!
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK
Co-Admin
Look, this is all over-complication. There is no plot hole, just a plot abandonment when the Sifo-Days thing went nowhere- irritating but hardly fatal.
Dooku impersonated Dyas and ordered the Clones. It was Dooku who messed around with the recordsd, and the dating shows he did it ten years ago, just after TPM (dunno where you got 20 yeards from, queeq).
That the Kaminoans were mostly ignorant of things you may not like, but it is not at all inconsistent with what they see. They don't even know that Dyas, the man they think they are taking orders from, died ten years ago. Theuir world is outside the Republic,m far enough outside that weapons from their world cannot be identified by normal means. Bot at all unlimkely that they are complete out the news loop. And if there are any other problems with that- well, Dooku is a Sith Lord, a Master of deception. That's all you need.
As for the Clone Army being suspicious- uyes, but that's the point. The Jedi have no choice but to use it, and the Senate backs its use anyway. The Jedi are suspicious bit cannot prove anything, and never find the big bad Sith Lord in time.
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
Registered: Nov 2007
Location: various remote midwestern hillbilly
Why would they spend billions making a clone army with no down-payment or credit check or anything like that? "Oh, he's a Jedi so I guess we will use all our resources to do this without checking from anyone else or inquiring about who is going to pay for it."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
Boba is 10 years old. The order was placed 10 years ago.
Obi-Wan told Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas was killed ALMOST 10 years ago.
He then tells the Old Folks Home that Sifo-Dyas placed the order ALMOST 10 years ago...which is wrong, that's a fact.
Then he says he thought Sifo-Dyas was killed before that..."before what?!" The clone order which he's wrong about?
His reporting is wrong. The conversation between him and Lama Su makes more sense.
Obi-Wan had never seen the clones and had no idea how old they were.
Obi-Wan must've just had a lucky guess if he simply made up the time when Sifo-Dyas died. 'Cause if he chose OVER 10 years ago, then the Clones Wars would never have happened.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: I have no idea...it's dark, though.
And they accept the clones under these circumstances, and NO ONE brings these issues up - the fact that the enemy had a hand in it's creation.
- y'know, I thought Bail WOULD say something...when Senator Ask Aak says, "The debate is over. Now we need that clone army."
Bail says, "Unfortunately, the debate is not over. The senate will never approve the use of clones before the seperatists attack."
How about never approving the use of clones under these circumstances? Nope, it's an issue of protocol. Who cares?!
Either the good guys are really stupid and don't care - killing their reliability, or we're expected not to see that aspect - insulting the viewers intelligence.
__________________ "Home? I have no home. Hunted, despised...living like an animal. The jungle is my home. But I shall show the world that I can be its master."
FER TEA!!
Dec 6th, 2008 09:03 AM
