On the two occasions that I remember the Enterprise travelling across the galaxy in a tiny amount of time, they were both not because of the Enterprise technology but because of someone else....Q in "Q-who" in which he clicked his fingers and blasted the enterprise into the path of the Borg and the other being because of the traveller. It's maximum cruising speed was warp 9.2 with 9.6 being achievable for 12 hours and 9.8 being made at extreme risk to the ship.
Voyager has a sustainable cruising speed of 9.975...So it's faster even without it's borg upgrades.
After upgrades, Voyager has transphasic that are far more powerful than anything enterprise had and could 1-shot a borg ship when the Enterprise-D could barely scratch one. It also had ablative armour and upgraded shielding.
Voyager....And a species 8472 bioship.
I said it was weak when compared with certain other ships....and i'm right.
Be honest. That is desperately clutching at straws so as to not allow them.
This isn't a Empire v Starfleet debate. It's a whole of SW v whole of ST minus omnipotent beings and with a few other rules.
We both know a Empire v Starfleet debate would be rather silly given that Starfleet control only a tiny fraction of the galaxy where as the empire control the whole of a similarly sized one. (Although as I already said...SF have it in terms of weapon power due to transphasic torpedoes/proton torpedoes/quantum torpedoes) They have it in terms of speed as they aquired transwarp technology...They have transporters....They also have a huge range advantage on SD's
Regardless of this, the empire have it poorly in terms of numbers. The Thrawn trilogy stated that 500 ancient battle cruisers from the Katana fleet would have changed the balance of power in the galaxy..500 ships...Someone like the Borg have billions of Cubes and spheres with trillions of drones (actually stated in Voyager)
In the episode I'm referring, they get upgrades that launches them out of the galaxy and then across the universe.
And therein' lies the clincher. "borg upgrades" and "after" this and "after" that. Sorry, not what was produced off the line.
Episode #? I'm sure there is a circumstance surrounding this that you are conveniently forgetting.
And an 8472 bioship certainly doesn't count as a starfleet ship at the last half of the 24th Century, does it?
No you didn't.
You specifically posted:
"...Enterprise D is weak in terms of power compared even with other federation ships."
We can either argue the ship compared to "other federation ships" or we can limit it to just a 2 or 3 ships it is compared to. Which is it? If the latter, we agree, obviously, and there's no debating that.
In terms of "off the line" starfleet technology, you don't have very many ships that can match a Galaxy Class starship like enterprise D, except another Galaxy-class starship made at a later date...and secret ships like the NX-59650
If you want to go with all the foreign technology added to Voyager AFTER entering the Delta quadrant, that's fine. Then we need to "adjust" the discussion. The Voyager at launch was completely a Federation ship. When it came back, it was a Federation ship enhanced with Delta Quadrant technology. I find it rather lame to compare post Delta Quadrant Voyager to a "now" destroyed Enterprise D.
Uh, no, it is not. Not even close. A different universe is a different universe. A Starwars fan wouldn't put up with it.
Obviously. And I quickly passed over the Species 8427 debate rather fast. No need to continue it when the outcome is obvious, right?
I disagree with your first point and agree with your "I digress" point.
Cool. The Borg beats the Empire. Was that ever in question? If a pro-Starwars person says otherwise, they're usually morons who know nothing of ST.
The Federation, the Dominion, Klingons, Cardasians, and Romulans are still left for grabs. Let's debate those. I think that was the thread starter's goal, anyway.
compared to the vessels in the 2370s, the Galaxy Class Enterprise D IS poor. Put it up against most of the ships around then, and it would look plain bad. The Galaxy Class ships were extensively upgraded during the dominion war. Look at the likes of the USS Odyssey that was massacred by the Jem'Hadar, and then compare it to the likes of the Galaxy class ships during the war that were one-shotting enemy ships.
Bar Voyager? No Starfleet ships using pure firepower.
The Sovereign, the Defiant, the Akira. They were all built with enemy combat engagements in mind. They were all built and equipped to deal with their enemy equivalents.
By the 2370s, the Enterprise D was looking pretty average in comparison to the standard Starfleet vessels. Even the Excelsior class was getting heavily upgraded to keep up with the times...
i mean, we are talking the 2370s, right? that was the busiest, most shown era of star trek...
Yeah, that's the traveller. It wasn't actually anything to do with the ship. It was all because of him. The episode is called "Where noone has gone before".
You can't really argue that Voyager's upgrades are disallowed 1 sentence after saying that the Enterprise-D's (which weren't even upgrades) are.
Endgame...Or Skorpion for the bioship.
Lucky that's not one of the parameters of the thread then eh?
Yes...meaning compared with non-federation ships as well as other federation ships...It's weak compared with the Prometheus class, Sovereign class, defiant class and even intrepid class which are all later half of the 24th century.
It's within canon...It's allowed.
And you are clutching at straws because we both know when the term "within universe" means anything within the story arcs of the particular shows/films/books and not physically within a spacial universe.
In that case, given that on-screen alliances are allowed then the following have allied at one point
You're forgetting that the only reason the Jem'Hadar could even do jack shit was their weapons were different and could break through the ellipsoid shields of the Federation vessels. Those phased weapons (I forget that complete name of that energy weapon) were adapted to so that the shields would remain and hold up. As soon as the appropriate adaptations were made, the shields worked. They found the antidote to their poison. That's hardly "upgrading" beyond D.
Extensively upgraded? How about no.
And saying that the Galaxy class war ship is weak because it got destroyed by a kamikaze Jem'Hadar vessel is not accurate. It wasn't weak at all. Just another ship used a weapon's technology that made the shields non-existent.
Since the Galaxy-class was used so much in the dominion war, it is hardly a weak vessel...which proves my point.
You need to rephrase that. No SINGLE starfleet ship.
I'll give you that defiant and the Akira...but that's it. In the cannon shows and movies, it is the defiant, Akira class (which wasn't seen very often...except the Dominion war) and the NX-59650
In fact, the three ships, Defiant, Akira ships during Dominion war, and the NX-59650 are the only ships designed specifically for war. The Akira class wasn't seen very often so they are few and far between. We see he Galaxy class more during the war than the Akira.
Compared to other federation ships, it is/ not weak. Galaxy class was one of the best ships they had. Why did they keep building them if they were "weak"? It's like saying the Romulans Warbird is weak because they built so many and it was common.
__________________
Last edited by dadudemon on May 26th, 2009 at 06:35 PM
You'll have to excuse my memory of the episode, which is over a decade old...I thought it was upgrades done by that guy.
Yes I can.
When Voyager left, it was pure federation. When it came back, the technology was an amalgamation of Delta Quadrant technologies (and upgrades from the 25th century), not just federation upgrades. It wasn't just a "federation" vessel anymore.
Bad form. Do you have any legit answers? No single ship did it without assistance as I stated already. Voyager did it with massive upgrades from the future. It was done with upgrades from 3 decades ahead...upgrades that were technology specifically designed to counter the Borg.
So, you're going to go outside the parameters of the original question so you aren't wrong, eh? Bad form.
Context of the question is latter half of the 24th Century. Does it make sense, at all, to compare the Enterprise D to 25th Century technology when calling it weak to it's "contemporaries"? The original argument came from you assessing the that D is a weak ship when it is, by far, not true...relative to it's time.
No, not the Intrepid class. And you name off these classes like there's many vessels in each class, which is not the case at all. Name more than one Sovereign class vessel? Name more than 3 defiant class vessels or name more than one Defiant vessel used after the prototype is gone? Name more than one Prometheus class ship other than 59650? Exactly. The Voyager's "benefits" at launch were it's faster computers, faster warp capabilities, 2 more photon torpedo bays, and 3 or 4 more phaser banks. However, the Galaxy class has better shielding, better sensors, more crew, and the D had much more photon torpedoes. D was the flagship at release. It was the best.
Not in the way I'm using "universe" obviously. And, it is very much a moot point. There was not alliance between the UFP and the species. They win, alone, against them. End of discussion, literally.
No, there is never an alliance with the Borg. It was an agreement with a marooned federation vessel.
Nah, some guy claimed his equations were responsible but it turns out it was assistant who's thoughts were doing it.
Irrelevant. (To quote 7 of 9)
So when I answer your question legitimately then you change the parameters?
You're the one adding more and more criteria simply to gimp ST, not me.
So you admit that the Intrepid class out-speeds and out-guns the Galaxy class (It also out manuveurs it due to its smaller size) yet you still claim a Galaxy class is superior due to your claim that it has better shields and better sensors?
Better go back that claim up 1st before we continue any further though.
Actually, don't bother. Intrepid class ships had modulating shields as standard so as to adapt to enemy weapons frequency more easily. It also had shields that could be concentrated on specific areas of the ship rather than wholly encompassing it.
It also has, and I quote,
Due to it's upgraded astrometrics and even before the upgrades its stellar chartography lab has far better sensors than the Galaxy class and these were improved 10 fold by 7 of 9.
Your "more crew" point is irrelevant also. Why? Because the vastly bigger crew doesn't actually consist of Star Fleet staff who are going to make a difference in combat situations. They're mostly science staff
What exactly is your point regarding this? That there wasn't a lot of them? There was only ever 6 Galaxy class ships too.
There was 3 intrepid class, 3 defiant class, 2 prometheus class ships (one was unnamed during the episode it was in) and 1 Sovereign class.
Yeah you're using your version of it, again, simply to gimp ST.
Then the Borg would win alone anyway, as would the Dominion.
I'd even wager that the Reman Scimitar would solo most of the Empire's fleet and planets given how powerful it is.
52 pulse disruptor canons.
27 photon torpedo bays.
A thaeleron radiation superweapon.
Primary and secondary shields.
A perfect and undetectable cloaking device.
You've also not countered any of the previous points about the fact that the ST ships have a vast range advantage over SW ships.
You've also not countered any of the points made that state that SW shields would be ineffective against many ST weapons (transphasic torpedoes)
Cool. Thanks for clarifying that...my memory fails me, from time to time.
But...but...how is it irrelevant?
I thought this was fairly exclusive to the last half of the 24th Century.
Here's why:
Then you continued with the 24th Century debate and made comparisons. I pointed out, in my last post, that Voyager, by "Endgame", had 25th Century technology. Do you see the logic I'm using?
Incorrect. It's because you claimed Enterprise is weak but it still destroyed a planet. I showed, clearly, that it wasn't weak, by 24th Century Standards. (Mainly, 60s and 70s) I also pointed out that your example of destroying the planet is grossly out of context.
In reality, it is you overpowering ST.
Parameter was 24th Century and federation. You set the Federation parameter, and we (you and I) went with 24th Century.
The design specs stating that it's shields were supposed to be uber and no specs like that for Voyager. Also, the Enterprise is designed for unknown space exploration so they had to give it the best of everything. The Intrepid-Class does not boast that spec of uber shields, but the Galaxy class does. The Intrepid class can boost navigation sensors and speed. Each ship has a list of "pluses". Every ship can't be built with the best of everything...so they are given strengths in areas that compliment it's duty.
Guess what? The Enterprise D is the one who pioneered the adjusting shields because of their encounters with the borg.
It also has, and I quote,
Great. So it's astrometrics lab had better astrometric sensors than the nonexistent astrometrics lab on Enterprise...a point that I've already pointed out.
That would be "gimping" Star Trek. Starfleet personnel, all of them the tops and the best, aren't going to help? Why wouldn't they? You're joking, right? You do know that the Enterprise was the flagship and only the best and brightest get to be on the Enterprise, don't you?
Not according to your wiki.
"Analysis of the battle from "Sacrifice of Angels" showed no less than five Galaxy-class vessels in the combined Federation fleet during Operation Return. This would indicate that there were more than the initial six Galaxy-class starships referenced in the TNG Technical Manual."
Then later it says:
"Several more starships entered the fleet inventory during the 2370s. (VOY: "Relativity") By the latter half of the decade, Galaxy-class ships were seen all around Federation space, from stations near Earth (VOY: "Endgame") to near the Romulan Neutral Zone. (Star Trek Nemesis)"
So, apparently, it became quite a common vessel.
The question was rhetorical, sir, and you answered it incorrectly...but it does reinforce my point by you answering with numbers.
And I never asked you to name off any Intrepid Class ships.
I asked for sovereign, prometheus, and defiant (after the prototype was destroyed...and, no, the previous century ship doesn't count in this, unless you would it to get utterly destroyed in a batter with 24th Century villains...). Again, the question was rhetorical.
I agree on the Borg, but not the Dominion. I haven't heard any arguments for it, so I remain neutral.
Why would I counter something I agree with?
You do know that I'm pro-Trek in this vs. don't you? I've already indicated that I was.
Why would I?
Are we going to allow transphasic torpedoes? What does the thread starter say? (I'd say, yes.)
Are we going to allow ablative hull plating in the class of the Prometheus technology? (not the defiant's, the 25th century version)
These things need to be clarified.
Since Star Wars recognizes little to no technology increases, we don't have to worry about time lines in SW. That's a relief.
Onward to on topic.
I'm of the opinion that no Empire Vessel can with stand a transphasic torpedo. How it works would cause them problems. This assumes that the shielding technology is the same....but is it?
__________________
Last edited by dadudemon on May 26th, 2009 at 11:36 PM
they used a type of polaron beams to penetrate federation shielding. the shield weren't just adapated, they were upgraded. and it wasn't just the shields. they had new phaser arrays added to vessels. the phasers were even improved (the enterprise E was one of the the first starfleet ships to have the improved phasers available to it).
picard had expert knowledge. t'wasn't just firepower.
the akira had been in service since the 2360s (confirmed by registry numbers and various other sources). it was seen in almost every big sleet shot in ds9 during the dominion war, and of course first contact. it was a well travelled ship.
the sovereign class was built with combat heavily in mind. it had ablative armour, improved shields, a rapid fire quantum torpedo launcher, and new improved phaser arrays.
there are about a dozen canon galay class ships in existence. they're insanely expensive to build. the akiras were in much larger supply throughout starfleet.
as i said, there's about a dozen. i also said that WITH refits and upgrades, they kept up. more than kept up. they were the heavy dreadnougts of the federation fleets during the war. that doesn't change the fact that they were heavily upgraded, though, it's more than just modifying shield frequencies and such.
the enteprise d would have trouble competing with the galaxy class ships seen during the war. it doesn't have the weapon or shield capabilities (both strength and anti dominion modifications) to stand up to scrutiny.
For the 2nd time, I never said it was weak. I said it weak relative to other federation ships as well as non-federation ships. This is true. We've already established that the Defiant, the Prometheus and the Sovereign classes are more powerful and I've shown evidence for why even the Intrepid class is more powerful.
The paramether was "no 30th century tech".
The Borg use ablative hull armour in the 24th century too.
Using the word "uber" isn't backing up your claim. The Galaxy class has standard deflector shields with no changing nutation as standard (Intrepid does), No ability to point focus (Intrepid does) and a weaker engine (power source) to supply it. It's shields also had a weakness where the impulse engine exhaust destabilised the shield which the Intrepid didn't.
Your claim was that the Galaxy class had better sensors than the Intrepid. I've shown otherwise.
Very true. And you raise an interesting point. Voyager's shields always lasted longer against the Borg than the Enterprise's ever did.
I'd give it to you that most of Enterprise's crew are better than Voyagers but they're not going up against each other are they?
Wouldn't matter. They by-pass shields altogether by phasing through them. Shields in both cases are designed to stop direct energy and kinetic energy weapons but the phase cloaking circumvents both.
Then there's the Chroniton torpedo which actually phases out of normal space/time to circumvent shields.
In terms of weapons, I've also mentioned previously the Cardassian Dreadnaught and the Series 5 long range tactical armor unit. Both of which are long range, warp capable, self-defensive, genius-level AI weapons.
Then there's the Borg Multi-kintetic nuetroic mines which can devestate entire solar systems.
Lots of nasty stuff that matches or outstrips even the more powerful Empire WMD's
__________________
You come at the King, you best not miss!
Last edited by jaden101 on May 27th, 2009 at 07:18 PM
You can say "as standard", but it is safe to assume that all Galaxy Class ships, after the people aboard D invented it, have that upgrade in the shielding technology. Don't forget shielding harmonics which Barclay invented.
Now, the Galaxy class ship was the best at release. There was no better. They continued to build those ships, so they were awesome. There were Galaxy ships being built when Voyager was launched, so it is not that bad of a ship if they keep building it.
And had the ship survived longer than it's PIS destruction, it would also have recieved those upgrades the others did, still making it one of the best ships in Starfleets arsenal.
You've shown astrometrics only. There's a lot more to sensors than just astrometrics, you know.
Cool.
However, Voyager had a few "surprises". Sure, Torres is no Jordie la Forge or Barclay. Tuvoc is no Data. Janway is no Picard. Etc. However, they functioned very well together. EMH I is better than Crusher, I think...buth Crusher is suposed to be the best of the best. I see the EMH I doing just as many if not more innovative things than Crusher. However, Crusher is waaaaaaay hotter than the EMH. The enterprise crew is supposed to be the best of the best.
Wouldn't matter. They by-pass shields altogether by phasing through them. Shields in both cases are designed to stop direct energy and kinetic energy weapons but the phase cloaking circumvents both.
Then there's the Chroniton torpedo which actually phases out of normal space/time to circumvent shields.
In terms of weapons, I've also mentioned previously the Cardassian Dreadnaught and the Series 5 long range tactical armor unit. Both of which are long range, warp capable, self-defensive, genius-level AI weapons.
Then there's the Borg Multi-kintetic nuetroic mines which can devestate entire solar systems.
Lots of nasty stuff that matches or outstrips even the more powerful Empire WMD's [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, I'm going to say that the shielding technology in star wars seems to block energy, but not tangible objects. Do we have shields blocking torpedoes in Star Wars?
And, the Borg beat he empire, no problem. That's not even debatable.
However, those unmanned ships are awesome. Let's focus on those.
Because it was destroyed before getting upgrades like every other ship was for the Dominion war.
She wasn't hooked on phonics, either. She called Data "Dadduh." Her name was Katherine or Catherine Pulaski. However, she is a highly accomplished Starfleet doctor. She saved Picard's life one time because his heart thingie. Other doctors couldn't so she went to the base and saved him. She's one of the best doctors in all of starfleet. She was also closer to Bones in personality because she hated transporting.
So, here's the deal. Antimatter weapons would make short work of ablative hull plating. The matter and antimatter would annhilated eachother. Do the Star Wars weapons have anti-matter weapons? I don't remember any. That means that they would have to overload the energy dissipation of ablative armor to make any dent.
If you hit ablative armour with enough energy for enough time it'll get destroyed because that's what it's designed to do. It disintegrates at a controlled rate. That's what "ablation" means
The concept is actually science fact as it's a form of ablative armour that the space shuttles use to re-enter the atmosphere.
The whole thing with Lore and the free Borg. The Enterprise survived an encounter with a Borg Cube, using super shields while in a star. They destroyed the ship by causing an aimed solar flair.
That wasn't a a cube. I was never clarified what type of vessel it was. Whether it was taken from another race or whether it was built by the rogue borg.
KMC Community Forums
May 26th, 2009 08:23 AM
In the cannon shows and movies, it is the defiant, Akira class (which wasn't seen very often...except the Dominion war) and the NX-59650
Official pimp of Steverules 
