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Lord of the Rings power levels
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Incanus
Istari

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Yeah, Nemesis is just saying what i thought. Tom cant POSSIBLY be older than Sauron, as that was always his name, and he helped to create the world. Tom is probly just a being put there by Eru to help with the natural things and other crap. So, he cant be older than Sauron as there had to BE a world for him to live on. Maybe Tom isnt alive tho, maybe he was a vision or ghost or something sent by Eru as part of the Music. Possibly an unheard Fourth theme? Could that have been Tom?????


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 28th, 2009 04:49 PM
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leonheartmm
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actually, NO. ungoliant is OLDER than MELKOR, this is a fact. both the things that gnaw at the earth and ungoliant's child who attacked frodo and sam is OLDER than sauron himself. these were explicitly stated in both tlor and silmarion. tom bombadil is called the "first" and the last. and even tolkiens said that he was an enigma.

treebeard didnt become an ent until the first elves taught himhow to speak. the entwives are also older than him.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 08:44 AM
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Incanus
Istari

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Ok, so where did it say the Ungoliant, something created on Arda, is older than some1 who was created before the Earth was made, and helped create it. He even weaved in a second theme that was his evil, so he actually CHANGED the Music. THERE IS NO WAY ANYTHING IS OLDER THAN HIM. And if Tom in a enigma, who knows, he could be a Fourth theme never heardunder the Third. But post where it says that those things are OLDER han MELKOR. And Shelob was the last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world. She was born AFTER Arda was made, so she is younger than Melkor. And where did u get the thing about the things that gnaw at the earth? And Sauron is just as old as Melkor. His physical form, they are older than. His SPIRIT is as old as Melkor. They are the same age tho. EVERYTHING IS YOUNGER THAN THEM.


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 02:22 PM
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Zampanó
The Blind Critic

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Your claim about Melkor is questionable. I'd like to see a page number?


The Maiar entered creation later (in some cases) so I could see an argument against Sauron, but Melkor? He's the origin of Evil. And he's the 1st (2nd?) author of the world. And he's smelly.

None of that suggests a post-Bombadil genesis.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:13 PM
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leonheartmm
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she "went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world" shortly before the First Age - unogoliant's description in silmarion. BEFORE the first world implies BEFORE creation

A creature of an older world maybe it was - shelob in the return of the king

But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dűr - return of the king on shelob

Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day." - gandalf, in the two towers on the tunnels beneath moria

Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside - tom bombadil


so u see, they are older.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:13 PM
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Zampanó
The Blind Critic

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Before the First age does not mean before Creation. The ages are only relevant when talking about time after the creation of the sun and moon.

Look:
http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/y/yearsofthetrees.html

quote:
So the Years of the Trees came to an end. At this time, the Valar made the Sun and Moon to give light to the World, and the Years of the Sun began, and with them the First Age.


And Shelob is not confirmed older, because she only predates Sauron's occupation of Mordor, not necessarily his creation.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:21 PM
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leonheartmm
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^true true, however, the points about bombadil and the things that gnaw at the earth REMAIN. ungoliant is only a significant party because she was never said to be a valar or ainur and she actually became more powerful than morgoth at one time after the destruction of the trees. and ofcourse, she was there in the time of the trees.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:24 PM
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Incanus
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Well, maybe those things predate his physical form, or maybe because in the First Age he was referred to as Gorthaur the Cruel, not Sauron. Maybe thats why it says they are older than he, because Olorin didnt know Gorthaur and Sauron were the same person.


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 10:47 PM
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leonheartmm
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^no no, it says SAURON HIMSELF does not know of those things that gnaw at the earth because THEY are older than him. even if he had a different form or name, HE wud still be aware of them if they were younger than him.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 11:00 PM
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Incanus
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Actually, thats not entirely accurate. Eru never had the Ainur add a theme that would include those, as the tThemes as i thought were : Elves and Arda, Melkors evil, and finally Men. So i dont see how they could be older than some1 that help create the world at which they gnaw.......... But maybe Sauron didnt come to Arda until after it was created, as Tulkas did. That could explain it. But then it would be physical or something.........


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 11:31 PM
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leonheartmm
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but gandalf says "even sauron knows them not, they are OLDER THAN HE"

Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 11:48 PM
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Incanus
Istari

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DUDE, HOW CAN ANYTHING BE OLDER THAN ONE OF THE OLDEST PPL IN THE TIMEFRAME???? SAURON HELPED CREATE THE WORLD AND WAS THERE BEFORE ANY OF IT!!!!! THEY CANT BE OLDER THAN HE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 04:43 AM
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leonheartmm
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^yes they can if the story explicitly states it. an explanation cud be that they are part of an "older world" as gandalf states.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 09:39 AM
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Incanus
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Well, the only other explanation is that they are maiar as well, as there was nothing before the world other than Eru, and the Ainur. But then they would have to be one of the first creations, before Sauron. And that could possibly be i had just thought of that. =-)


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:45 PM
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leonheartmm
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or there cud have been world before eru created the ainur or maya.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 09:34 PM
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Allankles
Kwisatz Haderach

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by leonheartmm
or there cud have been world before eru created the ainur or maya.


There's only been one Arda. So if Ungoliant/Bombadil were spirits of Arda that would make them younger than all the Ainur. However it is likely that the Maiar may have been younger spirits but there's never been a clear distinction of age made concerning the different Ainur.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 10:54 PM
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Incanus
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Well, no. The only thing Eru created before the world was the Ainur. Sauron was one of them, so the things that gnaw at the earth have to be either younger than Sauron or Maiar as well, or it would have to be Eru, which i doubt. Is it possible they are the incarnation of Morgoths evil? Because Melkor turned to evil before Sauron, so.....................


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 11:43 PM
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Allankles
Kwisatz Haderach

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We know that the Ainur existed before anything else, I was talking about the distinction of age amongst the Ainur themselves. It could be interpreted that the Maiar came after the Valar and thus were younger spirits.


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Iboga chose not to fight, to allow himself to evolve. He had the wisdom to abandon the actions of war when he knew they would no longer serve him.

Old Post Jul 1st, 2009 06:52 AM
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Incanus
Istari

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Well, you are right. It could be thought of like that, but is it possible that those things are Ainur? I dont really think they are, but ur opinion isn mine it may be different. I still stick to my theory of them being the incarnation of Morgoths evil, which WOULD be older than Sauron, as Morgoth wanted to destroy or enslave the very matter of Arda itself.


__________________
Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Jul 1st, 2009 01:49 PM
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Gotenks779
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Hobbits: 7
Dwarves: 70
Humans: 130
Numenoreans: 240
Mouth Of Sauron: 290
Tom Bombadli: 400
Gimli: 450
Legolas: 520
Aragorn: 590
Gandalf The Grey: 660
Saruman: 730
Gandalf The White: 800
Radagast: 510
Nazgul: 470
Witch-King: 560
Eowyn: 575
Frodo: 460
Sam: 430
Merry: 380
Pippin: 320
Sauron: 860
Orcs: 110
Uruk-Hai: 180
Gothmog (The orc with one eye in TROTK): 250
Elrond: 310
Elves: 260
Galadriel: 350
Durin's Bane (Balrog in TFOTR): 480
Shelob: 370
Gollum: 310
Ungoliant: 400
Melkor (Morgoth): 1,700
Fingolfin: 800
Boromir: 300
Olephaunts: 200
Azog: 240
Bolg: 280
Bilbo (Young): 330
Bilbo (Old): 190
Smaug: 280
Thorin: 220
Eagles: 280
Ents: 320
Isildur: 930

That was a long list of power levels for LOTR now i can go and relax.

Old Post Jul 31st, 2014 02:09 AM
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