KMC Forums

 
  REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Already a member? Log-in!
 
 
Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: TV Series » New on the Live-Action Star Wars Show


New on the Live-Action Star Wars Show
Started by: SnakeEyes

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (15): « First ... « 2 3 [4] 5 6 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Nactous
Restricted

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: United States

Account Restricted


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ordo
As to Han, he IS a scoundrel, he just falls in love and that makes him a better person.

I'd say he was a good guy, but it is almost impossible to prove this without throwing some EU stuff up. *cough*saving Chewy*cough*


__________________

"The wait is over."

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 03:05 AM
Click here to Send Nactous a Private Message Find more posts by Nactous Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

No no... he IS a good guy. The fact that he doesn't act like one, like Lando, adds contrast and therefore character to these guys. These are basic storytelling concepts. Whoever argues that Han is not a good guy, just doens't get it. And yes, in the words of Ush, THAT'S HOW IT IS!


__________________

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 08:25 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
REXXXX
Networking

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego

Moderator


 

You don't need EU to know that Han Solo is a good guy, Nac.


__________________

My Twitter My Facebook My Tumblr My Wordpress

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 08:39 AM
Click here to Send REXXXX a Private Message Find more posts by REXXXX Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ushgarak
Paladin

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Co-Admin


Ushgarak is online now!

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ordo
I disagree that Star Wars is absolutist. There are characters like Lando (who, like Han is a "good guy" then a "bad guy" then a "good guy" again. Padme' openly questions the War in ROTS and Anakin blindly believes in it. As to Han, he IS a scoundrel, he just falls in love and that makes him a better person. He doesn't know how to cope with love. He's not a closet "good guy."

Unfortuantely for Lucas, relativism is realism and he fails to present an airtight portraytal of his ideas because he portrays them in a semi-realistic medium.

Please stop saying "Thats how it is." We've been discussing people's opinions here.


It's definitely how it is when it is factual, which is how GL has declared Star Wars to be. Realism has bugger all to do with it.

Anyway, as queeq says, your position is simply poorly observed.


__________________



"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"

"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 02:13 PM
Click here to Send Ushgarak a Private Message Find more posts by Ushgarak Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Kamino Boot Camp


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
No no... he IS a good guy. The fact that he doesn't act like one, like Lando, adds contrast and therefore character to these guys. These are basic storytelling concepts. Whoever argues that Han is not a good guy, just doens't get it. And yes, in the words of Ush, THAT'S HOW IT IS!


I never argued he wasn't a good guy. I argued he started as ambivalent.

Han bailing on the Death Star Run is not an "Act." Its a decision. Han likely didn't think "Hey. Maybe if I run away it will freak the osik out of everyone and they'll all think I'm a jerk! He made a decision, he wasn't a good one. He's not a perfect character. That's why he's a character. From that point on, Han is a "good" guy.

Lucas is having second thoughts on his original portrayal of Han in this way, hence the editing of the "Han shot first" scene (is this considered EU now?). Everyone know good guys can't shoot first and Lucas' second guessing on this shows even more how Lucas used grey characters in the OT.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Captain REX
You don't need EU to know that Han Solo is a good guy, Nac.


Yes, but the character starts as ambivalent, just like Lando.

If GL was interested in making it clear that these are good guys, Chewie wouldn't have choked Lando to death lol. Chewie is presented as a 100% of the time.

Though, it is important to note that these are non-using characters.

Han and Lando both polarize to the "good" (I should say protagonists') side as the conflict when the Empire escalates. However, this to me is more about redemption. NO ONE like Han's character when he bails on the Death Star run. No one like Lando when he gives Han over to the Empire. The point is "grey" or "dark" actions are redeemable through choice. That is what the entire OT is about. Redemption. Some guys just take longer than others.

And if the force really is BLACK or WHITE, I'd be interested to know if Lucas considered Vader a Jedi when he redeemed himself. That would be a telling argument.


__________________


| Sigs | My Artwork | Sig Duel Record 24:4 | Alliance Respect Thread |

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 02:39 PM
Click here to Send Ordo a Private Message Find more posts by Ordo Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
REXXXX
Networking

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego

Moderator


 

I don't think Han opting out of the Death Star run would be considered a grey action. And as I said, I'm sure if Lando didn't turn Han over, he'd be dead, and so would many others.

And I think Anakin's ghost at the end of ROTJ is a factor in what Vader is considered, post-redemption.


__________________

My Twitter My Facebook My Tumblr My Wordpress

Old Post Apr 8th, 2009 08:10 PM
Click here to Send REXXXX a Private Message Find more posts by REXXXX Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Nactous
Restricted

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: United States

Account Restricted


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Captain REX
You don't need EU to know that Han Solo is a good guy, Nac.


No, but it does help the argument.


__________________

"The wait is over."

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 04:49 AM
Click here to Send Nactous a Private Message Find more posts by Nactous Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
REXXXX
Networking

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego

Moderator


 

But it isn't relevant here...


__________________

My Twitter My Facebook My Tumblr My Wordpress

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 05:06 AM
Click here to Send REXXXX a Private Message Find more posts by REXXXX Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Their actions may have been ambivalent, the guys were still good guys. Their little story arc is about getting to grips with it. Don't make more out of it than it is.


__________________

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 06:35 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Nactous
Restricted

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: United States

Account Restricted


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Captain REX
But it isn't relevant here...


Hey, this very well could be EU.


__________________

"The wait is over."

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 04:29 PM
Click here to Send Nactous a Private Message Find more posts by Nactous Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!


__________________

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 05:01 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
REXXXX
Networking

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego

Moderator


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Nactous
Hey, this very well could be EU.


Right now it is not considered as such, hence why the EU is not discussed here, just as it is not discussed in the film forums.


__________________

My Twitter My Facebook My Tumblr My Wordpress

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 05:57 PM
Click here to Send REXXXX a Private Message Find more posts by REXXXX Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Nactous
Restricted

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: United States

Account Restricted


 

Then how can we discuss it if we don't know where it fits.


__________________

"The wait is over."

Old Post Apr 9th, 2009 07:10 PM
Click here to Send Nactous a Private Message Find more posts by Nactous Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

We can: just use the info from the movies and the series. There is some room for speculation, but that's about it.


__________________

Old Post Apr 10th, 2009 06:40 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Kamino Boot Camp


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
Their actions may have been ambivalent, the guys were still good guys. Their little story arc is about getting to grips with it. Don't make more out of it than it is.


No, the plot of the films is about discovering that they are good guys.

We know Lucas determines your goodness based on your actions. This is the entire premise of the vader story and redemption.

Both Han and Lando made some bad decisions. When we first meet them, we don’t know how to interpret their characters. Han just wants to swindle Skywalker and kenobi out of money, he's involved with shady characters, kills at his convenience, and is incredibly self serving. He doesn't believe in the force, outright dismissing it. Even look at his quotes! "What good is a reward if you ain't around to use it?" "Better her than me" etc etc.

He is not portrayed as a good guy until the end of the Film. He's "on the rebels side" but that doesn't make him a good guy, as Lucas clearly intended to show. Like Vader, he isn't a good guy until he redeems himself from his actions by coming back to aid in the destruction of the death star. From that point on, you he's loyalties and intentions are never doubted in the film. You trust him. You don’t before.

Lando is the same way, with Leia even giving voice to the audiences suspicion "I don't trust Lando!" You trust good guys and your friends, which Han points out he is, but Lando never reaches a friendship with the audience until he makes sacrifices for the characters we are attached too.

This is called character development; our perception of people changes over time. Yes, they both end up being good guys, but they are not immediately portrayed that way.


__________________


| Sigs | My Artwork | Sig Duel Record 24:4 | Alliance Respect Thread |

Old Post Apr 10th, 2009 05:48 PM
Click here to Send Ordo a Private Message Find more posts by Ordo Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

*sigh*

Sorry, dude. You just don't get it. Yes, it's called character development, but that doesn't mean they weren't already good guys. Again: they were good but still had to get to grips with it, in the sense that eventually tehy are faced with a choice, a fork in the road. The fact that they choose one way or the other proves they already were one or the other.


__________________

Old Post Apr 11th, 2009 10:49 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Kamino Boot Camp


 

Being good isn't something you "come to grips with." Lucas consideres goodness to be a default state right? "Balance is lightside." We all start there, and bad choices bring us down. "Once you start down teh dark path...yadda yadda yadda..." (Which of course, Yoda was wrong as he always is.)

Making a bad choice doesn't mean you were good. It doesn't tell us anything about your former state. What is DOES tell us in Lucasland is that you are moving in the wrong direction. Lucas portrays both Han and Lando as bad characters for very brief periods of time. Aside from those brief instances, one apiece, each one has a grey area where you aren't sure if you can trust them or if they really are good guys. These sentiments are voiced in the dialogue of characters, in the acting, in the cinematography. Eventually, both prove their worth to the characters and to the audience and form that point on are portrayed as "good guys."

And if I "just don't get it," there are no reasons for you to continue this conversation. As we've seen, when it comes to Star Wars you're always right, "thats how it is," and I "just dont get it."


__________________


| Sigs | My Artwork | Sig Duel Record 24:4 | Alliance Respect Thread |

Old Post Apr 11th, 2009 01:52 PM
Click here to Send Ordo a Private Message Find more posts by Ordo Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

That statement by Lucas only counted for Anakin. It was not a concept for all characters.

This is a debate, and I can continue debatin it as long as I want. I don't get your hostility, dude.


__________________

Old Post Apr 12th, 2009 11:48 AM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ordo
Enforcer of the Republic

Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Kamino Boot Camp


 

No, it wasn't a concept for all characters. It was more than a character concept, it is Lucas' philosphy. It was repeated in the films.

Please, continue all you want. However, "You just dont get it" and "thats how it is" aren't ways to continue debates.

If you have a problem with my "attitude", please discuss it with me via pm.


__________________


| Sigs | My Artwork | Sig Duel Record 24:4 | Alliance Respect Thread |

Old Post Apr 12th, 2009 03:12 PM
Click here to Send Ordo a Private Message Find more posts by Ordo Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: JP's bed

Moderator


 

Well, come up with some decent arguments. Ther "that's how it is" is based on how Lucas views these films (as simple good vs. bad films, light side is good, dark side is bad, no grey areas, balance=only light side etc). You add a lot of stuff of your own and from EU sources. Give us some decent arguments that cannot be contradicted with canon, clone wars or George Lucas and we'll believe ya.


__________________

Old Post Apr 12th, 2009 03:42 PM
Click here to Send queeq a Private Message Find more posts by queeq Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 04:11 PM.
Pages (15): « First ... « 2 3 [4] 5 6 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< Contact Us - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Forum powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.