Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Yes, it does. C-canon is valid only when it doesn't contradict the movies. Even then, speculation and interpretation come into play. No one can define Dooku the same way as GL, or Yoda or R2-D2 for that matter. This doesn't mean all EU should be dismissed; far from it. But we need to learn to be more selective in what we use as sources when talking about movie-specific fights and facts. If I see Yoda levitate the X-wing out of the swamp and Luke can't, I couldn't except a book version of this which says "Yoda struggled with the X-Wing, and a Jawa was hiding in the back, laughing".
I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Here's all I'm asking; watch the fight, and interpret it in your own words. Make arguments based on your observations. Don't rely on third-party sources to interpret for you. They can be wrong. They likely are, or they're taking liberties with something that's not conveyed in the original work. I'm not coming at you with off-base EU sources; you shouldn't do the same to me.
Edit, nevermind. I'll address this further down.
He absolutely did, before he filmed them. So they do reflect his inner thoughts accurately. But the movie versions may have alterations. Kind of like how Kit Fisto's head was not on Palpatine's desk in RotS, but the script said it was. Also, cue the amnesty bit again. Lucas has a right to change his mind during production or revise it for later movies. He's done both quite frequently. So all I'm saying is that the script is not as clear-cut as say, watching the final product.
If you feel that the final product is inferior to the script which proceeds it, well... We have nothing to talk about. Dooku through the fight to Anakin, and Kit Fisto's head is somewhere on that desk, we just can't see it because of the fallibility of camera angles, I suppose.
I never disputed Maul seizing control of the fight.
Why are you bringing it up?
I said Obi-Wan put Maul on his ass. Short-lived or not, it's there. It's apparent. I don't see why it's so important to you that Maul won anyways. The whole point is that Maul can't contain the rage of a padawan; Dooku did.
Again, how are you substantiating Maul's exhaustion? He doesn't move slower in the movie. He doesn't appear feeble or slow to react all the time. He doesn't limp. He doesn't have a gas tank meter on E. I don't get where you can substantiate his exhaustion level when as you said, he immediately seized control of the fight from both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Singularly, he was better than both. But together, he could not overcome them. That was my whole point.
So being in a droid-centric war for three years makes one more able to last ten seconds in battle without losing the number of their mess? So Maul, who kills entire crime syndicates and droids before breakfast, can't hang with a padawan and a Jedi master? Because he was tired? Did he not have his energy bar before the battle? What are you using to infer his exhaustion during the fight? Again, is he limping or panting? Is he even sweating? And yet Anakin's energy is titanic. Never mind that Maul's more powerful than Anoon and Qui-Gon, both of whom are supposed to be super badasses, his energy level is somewhere around the Star Wars Kid and an asthmatic Homer Simpson.
My entire point is, while Sam and Ian actually make an attempt to fight decently (Even if they fail miserably), they still look a hell of a lot better than Agen and Saesee who don't even respond correctly to someone attacking them with a lightsaber. I don't have to be a martial arts guru to point out how incredibly stupid it is of someone to just stand there while being attacked. If you want to believe they were secretly awesome because of Random EU Book X, go ahead. I'll also wait for the new EU explanation of their partial lobotomies right before they walked into that room, because they'd have to be brain dead to not respond to a Sith Lord attacking.
Let's take a look at Stover's interview.
So Stover's writing a novelization about a movie which he didn't see. He used an older copy of the script which doesn't show all changes made in the final product, and indeed the fight scenes were so glossed over it's unreal.
PALPATINE stands, a laser sword appears out of his cloak sleeve, and he spins toward the JEDI.
PALPATINE: It's treason, then.
A close shot of PALPATINE as the fight begins. Close shots of THREE JEDI getting cut down by PALPATINE. PALPATINE and MACE continue to fight.
Jedi Master MACE WINDU and the Sith Lord fight their way down the hallway and into the main office area. PALPATINE is able to use the Force to slam MACE against the wall, but he recovers before the Chancellor can cut him down.
Behold, his laser sword.
Stover in his own words: "I didn't set out to write a novelization so much as I tried to back-create, from Mr. Lucas's story and script, a novel as I think it might have been if he had been making the film based on it, rather than the other way around. I wanted it to be not just a good novelization, but a good novel."
So really, why are we considering this to be the pinnacle depiction of GL's intentions? It's essentially a novelization based on a script which was later revised for the actual movie. It's like a faxed copy of a fax.
Last edited by Janus Marius on Apr 19th, 2009 at 09:29 PM
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
You're missing the point (Which I should come to expect by now) - nothing depicts Qui-Gon as one of the best fighters in the Order. It's not a topic the movie touches on, and certainly nothing touches on Mace's ability as a Jedi fighter as of this time but later EU material. So you've taken one piece of unsubstantiated material and used it as a blanket to indicate truth, and it rests solely on the idea of Qui-Gon being the equal to someone we can't accurately depict in a fight at all during this timeframe.
I could almost understand your position if you weren't the one decrying Ragnos' powers because of his relative status in comparison with his peers which you couldn't substantiate or Revan's abilities considering you can't see any of his enemies fighting anyone. The only fight you have to judge TPM Mace on is... no fight at all. Even retroactively speculating with newer material, you're making guesses based on evidence that came after the assertion that TPM Mace = Qui-Gon Jinn. And then ignoring the fact that if this is the case, Qui-Gon Jinn should be better than Maul since Mace has further mastered Maul's style. It even comes full circle and contradicts the movie to make this assertion.
Missing the point, again.
If you accept that all EU is equally valid to be used in debate, then it standards to reason that Qui-Gon has held his own with a Vaapad/Juyo master. Maul is also a Juyo practitioner. Ergo, Qui-Gon Jinn should be one of the best Jedi in the entire series to overcome and defeat Maul, but in reality once he was isolated, he was quickly destroyed.
I'm opening the EU floodgate and arguing that stance with information you consider to be all equally valid. Hopefully now you see the problem with that kind of mentality. The assertion doesn't contradict anything in-movie by itself, but the later implications that Mace was a Juyo/Vaapad master (Which are not in the movies at all) when coupled with this equally valid EU statement then start to contradict themselves.
Escape:
So much for you being retired.
Read above. I'm making a lot of sense here, and I'm redefining my arguments according to established canon policy. If my reasoning shows there is some kind of contradiction, then the EU piece cannot be submitted as valid by itself. It's up to the opposing debator to establish the rational line of thought which makes it valid, not just throw it up and say "Look, I rest my case". Take the latter example of Qui-Gon Jinn being TPM Mace's equal; LS has estabished that TPM Mace already knew Vaapad (Something I didn't bother to double check on, simply because I'm neck-deep in other things) and yet Maul explicitly knows Juyo which is an incomplete Vaapad. If Qui-Gon Jinn can stalemate a Vaapad master, why can't he overcome a Juyo master? Obviously, there's more to it than just form, but you see the issue - it's not like he hasn't fought a similar enemy, according to EU.
Additionally, if the movie shows them as being complete idiots when it comes to personal defense and some random EU book says otherwise and fluffs up their reputations, why would I believe the EU books to be more valid than the movie depictions? Does this not go against established canon policy?
I didn't say that at all. I told her to debate on my level, using the source material, which she opted to avoid entirely in exchange for something of lesser canon value. Novelizations have their place - beneath the movies. Why argue at a lower level?
No, it doesn't. I'm presenting my reasoning in clear detail. I'm even using sources and explaining how my views are relating to established canon policy for your benefit. If you think I'm just being "Janus is always right cuz he says so", you're not correctly comprehending my points. This isn't about my opinion. It's about what logically makes sense. I'm making observations that are being combated by scans, quotes, and assertions which cannot be rationally backed up by those slinging them at me. If you don't see a problem with that, you and I can't ever begin to reach a level of mutual understanding.
Now, instead of everyone flying off the handle and assuming I'm preaching dogma here, actually evaluate what I'm saying and leave the personal evaluations at the door. You aren't here to debate my personality; you're here to debate my points. Focus on them, provide sources, use logic to establish your case. Don't just go "nuh uh" and throw a scan at me, and then accuse me of trying to dictate the truth. No one dictates the truth in this case but GL. How you work to get closer to that truth is up to you
I hope this is an attempt at friendly banter rather than an attempt to start a flame war from someone who has just went through a multi-paragraph diatribe complaining about the perceived short temperment of his opponent; particularly when you're not exactly legendary for your single standards or forum etiquette, Janus.
But to that point, nowhere did I say that I am never coming back. I just said that I am loathe to do so.
No, what you're doing is making a not-so-veiled attempt to suborn canon policy to push an agenda. But the "I'm making a lot of sense here" line is telling; who are you making a lot of sense to, Janus? This goes back to the arbiter line I mentioned in my previous response; whether you like to admit it or not, you are laboring under the delusion that you are making sense and that no one else is.
You're trying to pass off your own observations and analysis of the movies to be in a higher standing than established canon. That is where you fail on this attempt; you and I have been round and round over the years on many issues; let's take the ones regarding Sidious. You say you're right and make your argument and I say I'm right and I make mine. At the end of the day, where we differ is that I have always had more canon to support me whereas you have always tried to push your own analysis of the choreography.
That's the fundamental difference. You think Nick Gillard, the stunt coordinator for the saga, is hardly a canon source. At least he's paid to create the combat scenarios. How valid do you think you, a random audience member, are on the subject?
You're not. No one is. I reiterate: no matter how you try to cloak yourself under the belief that you're the interpreter of canon, you aren't (Ush is). That is simply something you're not free to argue.
You'd be right if and only if the canon evidence required substantiation. The various accolades given to the three Jedi Masters who accompanied Windu do not require substantiation unless you're gauging specifically how powerful they are relative to other combatants; it says that they are "celebrated swordsmen" among other things, meaning that they are neither inept nor talentless. Again, you're not free to argue that.
Vaapad is a derivative of Juyo; it's not the same thing at all. And it depends on the circumstances in which the battle was fought, not to mention the old edict of any given sunday.
You've just answered your own question. There is more to it than the form. Combatants are not bound by the same series of feints and attacks; the technique depends on the user. Maul and Mace are two completely different fighters. The fact that Qui-Gon has familiarity with the form does not mean he has familiarity with the combatant using it.
This is where you lose my sympathy. Take your vaunted example of Sidious and Mace. When they duel, they fight like (in your immortal words) "old men banging sticks." Now take Sidious's later duel with Yoda; the fight takes place between two CGI figures or, in some areas, a CGI figure in a stunt double. Palpatine moves far quicker and demonstrates far greater agility than during his duel with Mace. I want your explanation for this discrepency.
My explanation is a logical one: choreography plays a factor. Leland Chee has made it clear on the Holocron that speeds depicted in the EU do not contradict those of the movie; the Jedi and Sith of the prequel trilogy are not slower than those of older times. That's the end of it. It clearly makes room for EU perspective and supplementation.
At the end of the day, those Jedi who went with Mace to confront Sidious were some of the finest swordsmen in the Order. This is not up for debate. Their accolades and achievements still stand.
Why were they not able to contend with the Emperor? Because they weren't "Mace or Yoda."
Why do you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor? Because George Lucas said so. That means no Dooku, no Anakin, and no Obi-Wan.
There. We've argued at "your level."
Don't take this the wrong way, but Ush would be proud of you. This is exactly how he thinks. No regard for the novelizations or other supplements. The Empire and Confederacy are absolutely, irretrievably evil; the Rebel Alliance and the Republic are absolutely, irretrievably morally just and right; Palpatine is a total genius, Yoda and the others were complete fools; there is no morally gray, just black and white; stormtroopers are simply lackluster shocktroops devoid of marksmanship.
Frightening that the two of you seem to have so much in common. But at least he doesn't cherrypick.
I'm not interested in double standards. As I recall, the line that "you have to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor" and not Dooku was always a hard one for you to swallow and something you completely ignored. For that, and many other reasons, I don't regard you as the harbinger of canon or of the maintenance of George Lucas's interpretation.
We'll leave it as thus. Your interpretations are not, nor will they ever be, canon. They do not overrule, overturn, or retroactively eliminate EU you don't like.
Perhaps you're missing the point: I'm using actual canon. You're essentially whining and throwing a fit whenever someone uses a source that contradicts you and making up some bullshit explanation why it's invalid. I'm taking a source that is used to expand upon the original and using it towards my argument when it contradicts what you say. Your response? To try to argue it's somehow invalid.
What part of "Janus's interpretation means not a thing" do you not understand? You are not the final arbiter, your interpretation is not the absolute one. If I am using no fewer than three sources to elaborate my point of what I saw in the movie, whose interpretation is more valid in the end?
No, you're merely saying it's invalid when it contradicts your interpretation of the movies, that's it. You don't believe Dooku was losing. But others disagree. So do the official statements on the matter. In the end? You are wrong. That's all there is to it.
I also love how you keep trying "But what if it said this! Or that! HAHA! INVALID!"
Please, Janus, do yourself some credit. It doesn't say that, just like the latest Legacy of the Force novel won't reveal Yoda was a Sith Lord. Who cares what it 'might' say? It just matters what it does.
The 'contents of the fight?' Since when did terrible filmography enter in here? I've asked you before, but you always manage to avoid answering it: Could any average kendo student solo every fighter in the SW universe? The fact of the matter is, bad choreography happens. It doesn't change the intent of the scene or the abilities in the context of the universe.
I can easily point to the part after Yoda throws Dooku back and Dooku proceeds to attempt to stirke back.
Again, your entire argument is centered around your interpretation being the only right one.
Given this is about the fourth time you've come back, you'll excuse me if I don't put much stock in you coming back to be Mr. Nice Guy.
And seriously, if you're going to complain how I'm attacking poor you? I don't want to hear it. Youv'e started enough arguments with needling attacks at the opposition. You want me to be polite from now on? Fine, no problem. Remember all the times you didn't extend the courtesy you now want.
You cannot suddenly declare the contnuity shoddy on the whole premise of it being used against you. Nor can you substitute your own interpretation to get at what Lucas meant. If we cannot use Lucas's personal words, we are left with what's on screen and background material. And background material is considered valid on this forum by way of the argument.
Nobody has debated the movies are not ultimate canon. That doesn't make non contradictory material less valid.
Because it 'glosses over the battle?' Why is this a problem? It merely provides a quick description of it
I want to see this proven. When, in the script, was it changed so Dooku 'threw the fight?' Not much seems to support that. Where is this in the movie, Janus? We never see Sidious telling him to. No EU now.
The problem here is we have two official adaptations as well as other sources, one of these was personally contributed to by Lucas-he had a firm hand in all the novelizations.
If the script and novelization back it up, what is there really left to argue? Can you consider that what you think you saw onscreen was not actually what was occurring?
The thing is, countering with other canon, should be taken as a given. I've given you an official observation with someone with actual canonical backing and I notice you never seemed to have a problem slinging around Word of God when you thought it made your case.
For most people who are versed in SW canon, that would be rather sufficient.
Does anything here contradict the movies? No. What it contradicts is your interpretation of them, there is a difference.
And stop throwing out the what ifs, they don't matter and serve only to make your argument laughable. They don't say that, Janus, and it's about as idiotic as anyone saying 'what if Lucas remakes the movies with Luke as a giant cat?'
You're showing a standard here only because your argument is threatened. If the EU backed you up, would you be having this attitude?
By which you mean I should agree with you as opposed to taking canon into account. Janus, some things in fiction are cut and dry, black and white. That's why Star Wars even bothers to have canon. You're adopting this wounded persona where you're hit with sources that hurt your position and complaining about it. You can't cherrypick and decide things are invalid.
So, changes in some instances throw the whole thing into question? The policy has always been what doesn't contradict goes.
What is your point here? Again, you try to throw the entire validity of something into question when you're contradicted
Then what is the issue?
And this is disingenuous. Maul was caught off guard by an opponent tapping totally into rage and anger, which we know gives you quite the boost and almost definitely not treaiting Obi-wan seriously. He almost immediately seized control of the fight and put his opponent down. Are you really going to use it as a detriment to Maul?
Would anything but a big neon sign in the background or Maul looking at the camera saying "I'm so exhausted" do?
amazing. Somehow fighting one of the best fighters alive and his apprentice together, and taking no time to rest as the other regathers his strength before expending energy in a battle to kill the other...if you're exhausted after that, you just plain suck. You could also look at Dooku apparently gasping for breath after taking Anakin's arm if you wish to use these standards
Or maybe Palpatine is going too fast for them to react to.
Again: Cherrypicking nonsense. You know what the EU has them doing? Actually fighting.
And Sam and Ian get a pass because they 'make an attempt?' Sorry, either they suck too, or not.
And again: Canon>You. Deal with it. I don't care about your interpretations, I don't care what you want. You can believe whatever you want, but by the direct canon? You are wrong and that's all there is to it. Lucas himself has confirmed sources stating their abilities. Not enough for you? Then you're deluded and won't ever change your view because you're simply not capable of admitting your premises can be flawed.
What part of 'line edited' by Lucas escaped you? How does this render his novelization any less valid in regards to non contradictory scenes? Is this just you attempting to attack validity as to avoid being wrong?
Until the whole force thing there, what was contradictory?
Oh, give me a break! It's still canon, like it or not and if you don't completely ignore the part where he says Lucas performed a line edit on it and supplied a lot of information?
How absurd. "It, uhh...wasn't based on the final copy! That's means it's totally invalid! Can't be used at all, nope!"
You've been bleating on about stuff from Lucas himself. When you get direct evidence that Lucas line edited Stover's book for him, which would presumably include the accolades of those three swordsmen, what do you do? Ignore and belittle it.
You'd think a piece of literature with info from Lucas himself would be substantiation enough for most people. Apparently I'm mistaken. But no, because the movie never outright says it? Invalid. Cherrypicking. again.
When they get the accolades Qui-Gon does that applied to anything but their own time and had much to put it in context, call me. I didn't notice you complaining so much when you were arguing Marka Ragnos soloing any and everyone
Wait, that's retroactive material means nothing now? Despite being non contradictory, it just doesn't matter? So SW is no longer allowed to introduce things after the fact?
Oh, and Maul uses a rather custom style by incorporating Teras Kasi into it. Plus use of style does not equal pure skill with it. Grievous is also a master of Makashi and all other saber forms. We know Dooku eclipses him
your argument here basically consists of using their forms alone to decide the quality of the fighter?
The only problem I'm seeing is you making no sense.
Mace and Maul are both Form VII users. Maul also uses a DBL which is a different way of fighting and a martial artist who incorporates that to his style and his comparison to Mace at the time is debatable.
So, nice try
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Oh My God.
I have to intervene here because I'm not going to read through your "What is canon..." thoughts once again. We had this, right before you decided to leave this place (Oh the Irony...). You can read the response of myself here:
You lost the particular debate there and you will lose it every time you decide to bring it back to the table. Suffice to say: You weren't up to make an "argument" - you tried to pass down your oppinion as facts. There is a difference between that things. That you have "more canon" (read what is canon in the link above) doesn't matter. This is about quality and not about quantity. And the best quality canon can be found within the movies. Anything aside from the movies and Lucas own words is interpretation already (once again: See the link). So, essentially, when you have "more canon" you're just mentioning that you have "more interpretation" that points in the direction of your oppinion. Which doesn't make it right, valid or the absolute truth. End of story.
I hate to repeat myself, especially when quoting other people: "When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films." - Chris Cherasi
Is Nick Gillard statement a part of the movie? No? Then it's not absolute canon. So he can be questioned. And, mind you, this is the same Nick Gillard that claimed that there are no lightsaber forms at all. Canon?
As you can see, Ush agrees with my version of canon (and I think that also is the one Janus is using), and disagrees with yours. So maybe you want to stick to your own advice there, Gideon.
Holy shit. I really don't get how you're still - after years of preaching - haven't got a grip of the concept of canon. Anything not shown in the movies or states as fact is oppinion and interpretation. Those are two issues that can always be questioned. To make the long story short:
a) Janus (yours / mine / whatever) interpretation of the absolute canon (THE MOVIES AND LUCAS WORDS) is not less valid then any interpretation of it coming from any author that wrote a book for LFL.
b) There is fact and there is interpretation of facts. Just to show you once more how it works...
Fact: Qui-Gon Jinn met a stalemate with TPM Mace Windu when they practiced fighting.
Interpretations: Qui-Gon must be equal to TPM Mace in terms of lightsaber mastery. A younger Qui-Gon could possible have bested TPM Mace Windu.
Logical questions: How strong is TPM Mace Windu (in comparison to his Shatterpoint / RotS state for example)? We don't have an answer to that. Could it be that Mace would not give all he could in practice fights? Would Vaapad be less effective when used against a Jedi?
See: You can't just draw conclusions or flat out smack quotes from sources in the face of your opponent without answering those questions. And no, Gideon: A statement doesn't have to be correct because it pops up anywhere in a C-Canon source. Just get it into your head.
Allright, Gideon. Here you point out the meaning of "circumstances" and then you ignore them whenever you extract a quote of the source material? *Applauds*
They are "some of the finest swordsmen in the Order" based on WHAT? I may again point it out: A statement isn't automatically true because it pops up in a SW related source. In this case:
a) Third person limited narrator. So this statement spawns from the mind of Mace Windu and not an omniscient being. So because Mace, who seems to hype anybody with his thoughts in the RotS novel, thinks that those are uber swordsman, they are? So Obi-Wan is the one and only master of lightsaber fencing?
b) What does "some of the best" in this context mean anyway? There is factual evidence that we could use to put an entire league of duellist above those combatants. So are they top 10? Top 100? Of the PT era? Ever? No answer.
c) How does the statement matter at all? The movie and the novel both have the two dying without reaction to Sidious attack. So why would it matter if they are "some of the best" or just some younglings? They had no chance to even use their skills. Hence I've stated in the past that this scene doesn't speak for Sidious duelling abilities (because of the lack of a duel) - just for his speed and his ability to surprise people.
Or maybe because they were simply cut down before they even moved? Right.
Oh. Now you're the one that dictates canon here, Gideon? Lucas gave that statement in clear referrence to the time at the end of RotS. Hint: Dooku was dead at that point. With the same logic you could assume, that LotF Luke couldn't deal with RotS Sidious "because he isn't Mace or Yoda" - or any other character in the past, present and future of the SWU. Does that make sense?
Wow. You did notice how you just questioned your last 3.5 years of attempts to pass down "Sidious is da most powerful!!1" as fact? Gosh. Or is that where you happen to "cherrypick"?
See above. And I'm sure your not interested in double standards, given that your base every argument you made on them by ignoring the status of the sources you were using. Quite interessting, though.
And one last attempt to lecture you on the beauty of SW canon:
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'" - Chris Charasi
I hope you get it into your ferrous cranus this time. That what you percieve as "canon" is far away from the factual status you want it to have. And that's a fact, Gideon. As long as it's not coming from Lucas directly, it can be questioned. End of story. And no - that doesn't eliminate the EU, but it's certainly enough to eliminate hyperboles, exegerrations and personal oppionions without any basis. Get it into your head and get over it. Janus is perfectly right here.
__________________
"Step aside before I push you to the ground and go to the bathroom on you."
I don't actually know what your argument here is supposed to be, so I'll leave this one up to Gideon and LS, but it would seem that you're trying to simply sweep away all of EU as you see fit.
Huh.
Oh damn. So much for durasteel. Also, stormtroopers get owned by Ewoks and can’t shoot for shit. I mean, that’s all the movie shows, and what Ush says.
Or are you going to pick and choose what you're willing to accept?
So you revoke every statement you've ever made about Depa Billaba, right?
That wasn't said once.
Name some of the people in that "entire league" for whom there is "factual evidence" of superiority over Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tinn. Then substantiate why that "factual evidence" isn't as subject to "opinion" [hyperbole, exaggeration, etc.] as what is stated in the G-Canon novel.
That said, I'd clarify one thing here for all involved; it is Obi-Wan who notes [in an N-Canon scene, if you compare properly] that those four are some of the greatest swordsmen in the Order's history. I've said this before.
Speed is a factor in dueling abilities.
... Because they aren't Mace or Yoda. Ergo, they aren't strong enough, skilled enough, or [duh] fast enough.
No, it's subject to interpretation, therefore mine holds as much water as yours, and I say GL was referring to the RotS period and that only Mace or Yoda count.
See how that works?
Like I said: revoke every argument you've ever made about Depa - and just about every argument you've made about everyone else - and we'll talk, all I see so far is the shadow of a veritable mountain of double standards.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Are you suffering from some kind of intellectual blackout lately, Faunus? That appears to be the case since your entire "argument" here is based on plain and simply ignoring two statements.
a) "This is about quality and not about quantity."
b) "There is fact and there is interpretation of facts."
Which one of that two did escape your attention? By destinquishing between fact and interpretation in clear reference to the EU, I implied that the EU does contain facts. Did you just not get that? By talking about "quality" of statements, I have implied that there are different levels of quality that can be found in the EU statements. Did you also ignore that one?
And, just a question: If you, as you admit yourself, don't even understand my argument, why do even try to attack it? "It looks strange, let's hit it with sticks?" Very smart move...
See above. I don't get what is so hard to understand using a fairly easy concept. There is a difference between "fact" and "interpretation". What you are doing here is completely ignoring the topic and attempt to straw-man me. Either that, or you really didn't get it.
My point is not that all EU should be questioned. My point is that certain statements can be questioned, if one has a reason to do so. That also doesn't mean that you have to question them, nor does it mean that you're not allowed to use anything from the EU until it's has a backup in the movies. Still - questioning the existance of durasteel is notably different from questioning the judgement of a character regarding the lightsaber skills of some other characters. Don't you think so?
Why would I? Where is the basis for this ridiculous statement, Faunus?
Oh, excuse me. Mace just implies that Obi-Wan is a greater swordman than himself and Yoda, because they compensate certain flaws with their respective combat styles, while Obi-Wan is using the original form. Does that make sense?
Are you dense?
I simply stated that, given various sources, one could hypothetically come up with a rather long list of combatants exceeding the mentioned ones in terms of lightsaber ability - based on their showings. I'm sorry for the "factual" there - it was misplaced. What I meant was simple evidence suggesting that some people are better duellist which, of course, could also be questioned.
The way in which this particular scene was handed around here implies that speed is the only factor in duels, Faunus. You're pretty well aware of that fact. Do you really think that Sidious could easily defeat those Jedi this fast under other circumstances (more time to react, more space to fight in, not getting jumped by the Sith Lord)? I don't think so.
What I see, Faunus, is you playing stupid - or being stupid, which doesn't make much of a difference. What I assume is, that Lucas was referring to the group of people that either did face Sidious or had the intention to do so. That group of people would contain: Yoda, Mace and the Jedi he used as company to arrest him, Obi-Wan (who wanted to face Sidious instead of Anakin) and Anakin himself (who says that defeating the Emperor and taking over is a part of his future plans).
Any other assertion means that you must apply this statement to every single character in the SW mythos not being Mace or Yoda. This doesn't work, because the statement continues "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor." So here we already have the first exception to the "only Mace and Yoda rule" turning any under interpretation into pointless babble. And I'd also love to see the argument that results in proof for DE Sidious not being able to beat his own RotS incarnation. Because DE Sidious is also not "Mace or Yoda".
Like I said: You're apparently not getting the point. The point is that interpretation can be questioned, no matter who comes up with them. So, of course, you can feel free and dig up every thread in which you want to question my arguments, if you have a reason to do so. Have fun. But maybe you first want to open your eyes and read and - most important - comprehend before starting with that task.
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"Step aside before I push you to the ground and go to the bathroom on you."
You've made the argument that Depa could hold her own against Palpatine based on a single line of thought "spawn[ed] from the mind of Mace Windu." His "hype" of Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto is apparently subject to intense scrutiny - possibly even invalidation - yet the same isn't true for Depa. You seem to believe that the idea that she has "surpassed" Mace as a swordsman requires absolutely no further rationalization, despite the fact that she has fewer combat feats to her name than either Kolar or Fisto and only one against a lightsaber wielding opponent.
See here. Key statement:The linked post and the one currently being refuted were made less than three hours apart. Where's the rationalization there?
Answer: It's nonexistent, and your logic makes you guilty of a double standard.
Addressed... somewhere in this post.
I didn't touch the parts I didn't understand. I pointed out the flaws and inconsistencies in those that I did.
The durasteel example was misplaced; I thought I'd edited that out before posting. My mistake.
The skill level of a stormtrooper, however, is very much a topic of note. You cited a proclamation by Ushgarak - I bet you died a little inside for that one - as support for your argument. I pointed out that Ushgarak had "decreed" [The Judge and all...] earlier that "official KMC policy" regarding "why stormtroopers missed so much" was that they flat out sucked, because that's what the movie showed. I then told you that you had to pick one; you've clearly argued that stormtroopers aren't completely incompetent and that there is a legitimate reason as to why they were overpowered by Ewoks, so I can reasonably conclude that you do not share Ushgarak's views on that particular matter.
So, either change that argument or drop this one, or you'll be guilty of another double standard.
If this is what you're argument is based on - the idea that not all in-universe statements have to be taken as gospel - then we don't even disagree. I was most concerned with the myriad of double standards in your posts [hence, "as you see fit"] and the implication that something found in a C-Canon source, OOU or not, could be deemed invalid without contradicting an equal or higher canon source.
I hope that apology was also for calling me "dense." Your apparent typographical error misled me.
It was the only important factor in that particular situation. Regardless of how skilled, strong, or smart those Jedi were, in the end they were simply too slow to counter Palpatine. It isn't a complicated concept.
lolwut
More time to react? Not getting "jumped"? They were standing there with their lightsabers drawn for seventeen seconds before Palpatine jumped. There was a six second gap between the drawing of his lightsaber and his leap.
More space might have helped them survive longer, but please don't pretend that Palpatine got the jump on them.
That seems reasonable.
Right.
See the top of this post. Address the double standards. Until then, the bulk of what I'm concerned with is a problem.
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Simple put, Faunus. You're trying to argue content while my basical statement was directed at form. Of course you can base statements on quotes. The point is: When somebody questions the quote, one should be able to come up with further arguments, not simply repeating the quote ad nauseam and stating "it appears in a canon source, therefore it must be the absolute truth and can't be questioned".
That doesn't mean that one has to question every quote or directly add further arguments ot have the quote accepted. If all people happily agree with the idea, that the three Jedi that accompanied Mace to arrest Palpatine are some of the best swordsmen ever, there is no reason to come up with further evidence that they are. However - once that statement is questioned it would be the onus of the one who brought it up to substantiate it.
Of course you need a reason to question a statement first. If you want to question that Mace Windu was present on Haruun Kal to search for Depa Billaba, you'd need a very good reason to do so. Likewise you need a good reason to question the judgement of Mace Windu when it comes to the lightsaber expertise of Depa Billaba in comparison to his own. And if such a statement doesn't get argued, why waste time with bolstering it. That doesn't mean it's not attackable at all.
See above.
See above.
Petitio principii is a logical fallacy, Faunus. Hence I don't have to "pick one" in this case. That Ushgarak agrees with me on a single topic (the LFL canon policy) doesn't mean that I have to agree with him on every single topic. That kind of argument is nothing but bullshit. Especially considering that the post of himself I cited makes it clear that I don't have to agree with him (because all comes down to opinion and interpretation).
The next thing is, that Ushgarak's observation (as you site it) happens to be flawed. When Luke and Obi-Wan come across the destroyed Sandcrawler in ANH, Obi-Wan utters the following lines:
"And these blast points, too accurate for Sandpeople. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise."
So. Obi-Wan happens to be rather able to destinguish Sandpeople from Stormtroopers based on precision in terms of aiming. That is noteable, because we see some Sandpeople hitting moving Race-Pods from a rather long distance in TPM. Conclusion: The Sandpeople don't exactly suck when it comes to aiming an the Stormtroopers are considerably better than them in that very discipline.
Thus, even if you just go by the movies alone, the idea that stormtroopers suck at aiming is simply ridiculous. The best thing one could conclude is that their weapons are less precise than those wielded against them.
What "OOU" C-Canon are you referring to, Faunus? I can serve the quotes once again:
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play." AND "The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"
So: Every source that is not the movies or coming from Lucas himself, contains interpretation of the original SW universe. Thus, when - just as example - Stover mentions that Dooku is hard pressed to defend against Anakin's attacks in the latter stage of their RotS duel, this is Stover's interpretation. If I don't see Dooku being hard pressed to archieve the task (because maybe Lucas changed the whole scene) in the movie, I can attack Stovers interpretation. That it hapens to be in a C-Canon source and given by the narrator doesn't matter
Hence I was talking about the quality of information. If the DSSB claims that Sidious was so powerful that he "blotted out the stars" and I still see the stars shining, it's pretty obvious that I will scream "hyperbole" at that statement, despite the fact that it is not coming from an "in universe" source.
So, yes, essentially one could question every single sentence appearing in the EU. The point is: You need a reason to do it. While there might be a nice amount of reasons to question that Sidious is "the most powerful Sith Lord ever", I find it rather absurd to argue the existance of durasteel.
You are still not getting the point. To even mention their expertise in terms of saber skill (them being outstanding swordsmen) is already deceptive, because they weren't able to use their particular skills in that field. They don't move at all, so why does it matter if those are Padawan's or the gods of duelling? They get blitzed, they die. And speed doesn't belong to the "expertise as a swordman" department.
Excuse me, Faunus. According to Leland Chee, the action depicted on screen could happen far faster in the actual SWU. When Anakin sees Mace and Sidious fighting, he can't hardly follow their movements according to the RotS novel. If that's to be taken as a fact, then - obviously - the movie just shows a slow-motion version of the fight, in order to have the audience enjoy it. And if that is the case, the entire "action" might have happened faster than we perceive.
Which does make a lot of sense, unless you want to assume that those uber swordsman have the reaction time of dead starfishs and really stand there and watch how the Sith Lord comes flying at them, performs some ridiculous stabbing movements in order to kill them - this all without them moving an inch...
And you would also have to assume that Sidious took some cocaine and was high on stardust when he crossed blades with Yoda and suddenly performed far better than against Mace Windu.
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"Step aside before I push you to the ground and go to the bathroom on you."
Why not? She hasn't exactly indicated as much expertise with a sword. She has less going for her than Tiin, Kolar, or Fisto, since they have omniscient sources supporting their accolades.
By your logic, Depa is nothing. We expect a concession any time.
Apr 19th, 2009 09:22 PM
