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Is Vulcan a repressive regime?
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Their culture is just different; no better or worse 3 60.00%
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Is Vulcan a repressive regime?
Started by: roughrider

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roughrider
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Is Vulcan a repressive regime?

If the worlds in Star Trek were countries we see today, would we look at Vulcan like we would China, or Saudi Arabia?

Personal freedom of thought is not part of Vulcan's character.
Or is it all in one's definition of freedom?


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Old Post May 20th, 2009 06:51 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
If the worlds in Star Trek were countries we see today, would we look at Vulcan like we would China, or Saudi Arabia?

Personal freedom of thought is not part of Vulcan's character.
Or is it all in one's definition of freedom?


I wouldn't call it oppressive. Vulcan is one of the most idyllic societies in star trek. no war, no famine, no suffering.

You could look at it the same way you'd look at 1984 or Equilibrium, but i don't think it's the same thing. The Vulcans of past years weren't just emotional, they were emotional to the extreme. They (i believe) had NONE of the self control we have as humans. Then Surak came along with a solution.

Sure, it's not an IDEAL solution, but the vulcan way of life is at the point now where vulcans don't know any better, and are free to mix with other species, even having relationships (t'pol and tucker) or marrying (in sarek's case) those species.

I personally wouldn't want to be a vulcan, but i'm sure plenty of them appreciate the clarity of thought and pursuit of logic in their own special way...


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Old Post May 20th, 2009 08:40 PM
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I can't think of any example of Vulcan that discouraged free thought. Free thought leads to conclusions and conclusions reached through logic are typically the correct outcome. However, the Vulcans clearly have a deep spiritual understanding behind their beliefs and their unresolved questions.

Old Post May 20th, 2009 09:01 PM
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roughrider
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There is polite disapproval in Vulcan to intermarriage, it seems. Perhaps the parallels are to places like China or Japan, where family continuity is held in high regard; marrying outside that has risks.

And something in China's character craves authoritarianism, despite pockets of dissent. Like they need it to keep themselves in line, just as the Vulcans need their culture of logic.

While the Vulcans are active as founding partners of the Federation, it is a rarity for someone like Spock to enter Starfleet. Vulcans are expected to stay and work for their own society.


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Old Post May 20th, 2009 09:27 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
And something in China's character craves authoritarianism, despite pockets of dissent.


If it's in their character, then there would not be pockets of dissent. I'm sure those pockets represent a much larger desire for intellectual and ideological freedom than may seem apparent at first glimpse. They are, after all, an authoritarian country. Image is everything and lapses in the state-desired image don't go over well. *

This is a side comment, though. I have no desire to get into a socio-political debate on this forum. It would be great if you started a thread on this topic in the more appropriate forum, though.


* as a footnote to anyone in a political think tank, I do not condone invading China to "spread freedom.

Old Post May 20th, 2009 10:21 PM
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No one around today has the strength to invade China, but China is changing and will change drastically by itself in the coming decades, cars, cell phones etc are spreading through it's populace, Capitalism will spread, not that it isn't already.

Oh, the Vulcans, I don't see them as repressive, Vulcans are allowed to not embrace Surak's teachings and go rogue, so to speak. Sure they're shunned, by I don't think the Vulcan government tries to kill them.


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Old Post May 20th, 2009 11:22 PM
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roughrider
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ace of Knaves
If it's in their character, then there would not be pockets of dissent. I'm sure those pockets represent a much larger desire for intellectual and ideological freedom than may seem apparent at first glimpse. They are, after all, an authoritarian country. Image is everything and lapses in the state-desired image don't go over well. *

This is a side comment, though. I have no desire to get into a socio-political debate on this forum. It would be great if you started a thread on this topic in the more appropriate forum, though.


* as a footnote to anyone in a political think tank, I do not condone invading China to "spread freedom.


The flip side is, without authoritarianism, China would not have become a world power. Prior to the rise of Communism - and prior to the arrival of the warlord who became the first Emperor, thousands of years earlier - China was a land in chaos, fragmented, splintered into factions. It was a bitter pill to swallow uniting the country both times, but it was ultimately for their own good. Just as the first Vulcan philosophers did for their people.

Religion itself, like Vulcans culture of logic, is repressive of freedoms but believes it's done for your own good. A country like Israel may be democratic & wide open, but Jews come first and interfaith marriages are not allowed. Are their parallels to Israel in Vulcan?

Leonard Nimoy used a lot of hebrew text & ideas, in forming Spock & his culture.


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Old Post May 20th, 2009 11:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
The flip side is, without authoritarianism, China would not have become a world power.


I do not think that can be said with any measure of certainty.

Old Post May 21st, 2009 03:48 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by roughrider
While the Vulcans are active as founding partners of the Federation, it is a rarity for someone like Spock to enter Starfleet. Vulcans are expected to stay and work for their own society.


after humans, vulcans are the most heavily represented species in starfleet. there are even ships crewed entirely by vulcans (the t'kumbra, for example).


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 04:11 AM
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Badabing
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Vulcan repressed their emotions due to wars. It seemed to be more self preservation than oppression. Enterprise dealt with a lot of Vulcan history.


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 04:15 AM
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I chose yes.

Since the Vulcans are a race in which the culture itself has vastly changed how emotions are handled, we have to put their culture in relative context.

It is all relative. The scorn from one Vulcan to another, in the passive agressive manner it is done, holds just as much ground as punching them in the face, especially when you accuse them of something illogical.

Since we are to measure, as best as we call, with an anthropic meter stick, we can only conclude things in a translational manner. Deviation from the Vulcan norms does contain its own version of oppression from the people that live in the culture. They often look down upon other species for their hasty decisions, as well. Again, this is through an anthropic filter. As far as "regime" goes, that is out of context and doesn't apply...depending on your historical frame. If you are referencing pre-Vulcan Reformation, then, yes, they were very oppressive.


Post Vulcan Reformation, I would place them into the category of "social control." The vast majority of Vulcans are manipulated via social control. They are indoctrinated from the very earliest. However, this is a necessary good/evil. The Vulcans, without the social control, are a very blood-thirsty species. So, from a holistic perspective, they social norms are oppressive to allow more freedom. An oxymoron, of sorts, but it works.

Again, I only chose "yes" because I am measuring it anthropologically, and not purely logically...as there is no other way that it can be measured as this term "repressive" is our own construct.


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 04:23 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Raoul
(t'pol and tucker) .


Well I didn't know that in the few weeks I been watching. no expression



sad


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 10:11 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kinkin
Well I didn't know that in the few weeks I been watching. no expression



sad


sorry. sad


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 03:07 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kinkin
Well I didn't know that in the few weeks I been watching. no expression



sad


Oh come on, you could see that coming early in the show.


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Old Post May 21st, 2009 04:57 PM
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