No, he was pretty much maxed. He he no inhibitors. He screamed his head off and let loose. There really wasn't any change after he did that last release...he stayed the same.
And, no, Vegeta's head was smashed into a mountain that was a solid rock. He caused a MASSIVE crater, immediately, with his head. Vegeta passed out after Broli kept smashing his head into the massive rock.
And, I would say that Broli wasn't go all out, but he was certainly putting out a significant portion of effort...as Goku ended up defeating Broli. The only thing Broli didn't do was destroy the planet, which he could have done, which is why I say he was toying with them to a certain degree, but almost getting killed from a punch is not toying. Unlike Cell, he was beating the crap out of them from the gate, and not messing around, despite never having got to experience is full power.
Oh, I agree he held back. But it wasn't much.
He was knocked into the center of a cliff and the entire thing collapsed on him and he was bloodied up. That's not dodging, easily, and taking the hits, in stride. I just watched the fights around those two episodes and Cell was handing Gohan's ass to him.
No, he reaches SSJ2 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Goku does a flash back that shows it. This is why Goku knew Gohan would win.
No. It was in the middle, or else Goku and Gohan's hair would have been permanently blond. Their training netted them this state. They trained to be in a SSJ state as base level so a power up would make the stronger.
Since they weren't in this state, and they seemed to be just as crappy as Trunks and Vegeta, the only conclusion is them being in the HBTC shortly after Gohan learns SSJ. Of course, this is just logic, and they won't have anything like that.
Here are some PIS problems with the movie:
1. Gohan was wearing parital namek clothes, in the movie. Not the whole thing, but it looks partial.
2. Goku and Gohan were not in their permanent SSJ form.
3. If Goku and Gohan were supposed to be post HBTC, they should have been significantly stronger than everyone else.
4. No where, in canon, do we see another fighter give up their energy to make another fighter stronger. That is a non-canon feat.
5. LSSJ form is non-canon.
6. Gohan should have entered SSJ2 form IF he was post HBTC form. That doesn't happen until Bojack Unbound because that was very shortly after the Cell Games ended. Indicating that Goku and Gohan were taken shortly after the time Gohan first achieved SSJ.
7. The movie came out between Episode 177 and 178, but the characters do not match, chronologically, with those episodes. So they derrived those characters from an earlier period, but after Gohan reached SSJ. I'd say it was shortly after Vegeta and Trunks left the HBTC and Gohan reached SSJ.
Official books on a non-canon film? That doesn't sound official to me. And, no, he wasn't SSJ2. He was just plain ol' SSJ.
You mean not a continuous blast? That wasn't necessary. He made a huge blast and was pushing it with his TK. That's what the fight was. Broli was pushing his huge energy ball towards them and they were trying to push it back. However, the Kamehameha wasn't even close to being as large as SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell's.
Also, this goes to prove a point I was making earlier. Broli always does his crazy laugh...regardless of the situation. He is gone mad and it isn't because he is toying with them. He is certainly trying, and having fun while doing it.
Broli also takes several hits WHILE fighting, indicating that they are in a similar speed class, it's just that the hits are strong enough to do jack crap. Broli knows their power and can feel it, so he doesn't get shocked but getting hit...nor are the hits strong enough to hurt him.
Durability > Perfect Cell
However, Broli ain't doin' jack to Fat Buu. Not even close.
The initial release to LSSJ wasn't his full power. He was getting stronger as time passed to the point he had to let of energy to control it.
And it's not like it took Broli any effort to do that. He did it with ease. And he didn't continue to smash his head into it. And he laid out Trunks with an uppercut before that didn't he? Or did Trunks get up after that?
That is the first time Gohan gets hit and it doesn't phase him much at all the few hits he gets and blasted into the mountain. The next time Gohan is hit he's not even looking at Cell and it was a surprise attack, and when he recovers he's able to dodge, and he even dodges the blasts Cell used that was Freeza's. Gohan wasn't trying to fight while Cell was going all out trying to kill him.
Gohan never reaches ssj2 in the room. The first time it's reached is against Cell.
It can't be in the middle. There is no middle. Trunks' hair wasn't long until he comes out of the Spirit and Time Room. As soon as he comes out Gohan and Gokou go in. Gohan is also never ssj before that point. The only place it fits in between those ten days between Cell becoming Perfect and the Cell Games.
There is no time between Trunks coming out of the room and Gohan and Gokou going in the room. There isn't an inbetween. Sure there is a lot wrong with it, and Gohan's strength depends on his emotional state also. And Gokou survived the longest against Broli out of all of them I'd say that proves how much stronger he was. Them not being in ssj state at all times doesn't disprove anything simply because Gohan goes ssj. He can't go ssj until the spirit and time room.
All but one of the Daizenshuu are written by the anime creators. It's the official DB anime guide.
No I mean Broli had the huge energy ball, and he kept firing more energy into it. Then after Goten makes his wish the energy blasts that he had been firing into it suddenly start blowing up before they reach the ball. Then they bust threw it.
Broli has proven he can dodge them..He did it while sitting on a pole and two were attacking so he outclasses them in speed. He just wades through all their attacks because he can.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Exactly. Meaning, he was maxed out. If he didn't, he would end up like the previous LSS: dead because his own power will destroy him.
I'm watching it now. That's not the first time he gets hit. He gets hit many many times before getting knocked into the mountain.
He only was holding his own at the very beginning of the fight, and then Cell decides to stop messing around and that's when Gohan gets his cheeks handed to him. And, even then, Cell was STILL not going all out. He was just toying with Gohan.
No, he reaches it for a brief instant in a Flash back does. This is why Goku said that Gohan could win.
It has to be..and it actually is. Also, Gohan is his "younger" self in the film, as well. He isn't the older "finished" version post HBTC.
Rewatch the film. I'm right. Gohan is his younger self...
(I happen to have all the episodes, and all movies.)
You do know that he went into the HBTC twice, right?
No. Incorrect. They "took" Gohan and Goku out of the HBTC, mid training, to do the film.
Go back and watch it. Gohan is the "younger" self. However, he's wearing the clothes he got AFTER coming out. PIS, to the max.
Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 and he's younger, then we can, quite easily, see that the "power" of the Z fighters is right after Gohan discovers SSJ. Power and age-wise, that's where Gohan, and by consequence, that's where Goku is.
No, you're thinking about it wrong. It's not that logical. It is actually much simpler and much more illogical.
The movies are like "snapshots" of the fighters in an entirely separate universe. They seem to have mixed in different chronological elements into the film. Giving Gohan Piccolo's clothes yet making him younger like he was before going into the HBTC.
As the Wiki puts it, Gohan and Goku are full powered supersaiyans when they come out. They are not full powered SSs in Movie 8.
Okay, I'll take that. But it is easily negated by the fact that Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker than when he fought cell.
What? I ddidn't see that in the movie. I watched that part again, and I still don't see that. I see energy balls exploding and being absorbed as they touch the ball. I don't see them exploding before they hit the ball.
Goku also dodges Broli. Other characters probably did to, but i don't feel like watching it two nights in a row to see.
Also, in Broli's favor, he doesn't appear to have Martial Arts training like the others do.
Like I said Gohan wasn't very much affected by the little beating and blasting into the mountain. He only got hit because Cell went faster, and even after he gets up from the mountain he's able to dodge that speed once he gets his bearings after a blindsided hit, and few more punches. At first Cell may not have been going all out but Gohan wasn't even fighting back at all. He attacks once and that's just a simple counter and that's it. It's not until he gets mad, and goes ssj2 he starts to actually attack himself.
In the anime it may have it but it never once happens in the manga. SSJ2 isn't gone until Cell destroys Android 16 head. Gokou knows Gohan will win because of Gohan's power. It's greater than his, and Gokou was counting on Gohan's anger at that. It wasn't until Piccolo tells Gokou that Gohan hates fighting and all that which gets Gokou worried.
Trunks doesn't have long hair until the point he goes fights Cell. And Gohan's hairstyle is that of when they are training while Trunks is fighting Cell. Even if they take them 'out' as you said they are still a lot stronger than Vegeta and Trunks because they'd have been months training. But it's still after the battle with 2nd Form Cell no matter which way it fits.
He was much weaker than when he fought Cell. That's why Dabura gave him problems and was winning. But also take in the fact Gohan was angry when he went ssj2 against Cell so of course he'd be stronger still since that's not a power Gohan can willingly access, and he wasn't so quick to anger as a adult.
Right before the Kamehameha breaks through. Broli is firing a blast and it blows up. He gets a what the hell look on his face, fires more, and they explode. Then it shows a side view and they are exploding before they touch the ball.
I don't remember anybody really dodging Broli in LSSJ form. I know Gokou does when he's ssj, and Chibi Trunks is able to do it to ssj Broli but I don't remember LSSJ form being dodged
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
You have to compare apples to apples. Movie 8 is non-canon.
And, no, Gohan and Goku would not be much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, if they are "snapshots" of themselves shortly after Gohan reaches SSJ. It took them several months to reach the "full power SSJ" after that. Which, BTW, are not seen in the movie.
Also, Trunsk and Vegeta go into the HBTC twice. Trunks also gets his hair cut, twice.
You can't compare an anime movie to the manga, especially when the anime peeps are the ones who made the anime movie. You have to compare only the show to the movie in order for it to remain as logical as possible.
Would you like the movies/episodes? I can get them to you, no problem. Then you can watch them as many times as you want to see what I mean about the dodging.
Oh, and the "stronger because of being saiyan" argument is speculation. The fact is...Broli still wasn't recovered in second coming. He was Frozen, and then woke up 7 years later. No time to recover...he still has his "booboos" on his stomach and chest. It hasn't scared yet.
Sure it's non-canon but without a place to put them then power scaling in meaningless. The only way to get it completely right is to pluck them from different points in time. And even then that's hardly reliable also.
The little bit of time it takes for Trunks to loose to Cell would be months in the Spirit and Time Room. And as Trunks if fighting Cell is when Gokou explains to Gohan they have to stay in ssj. And Gohan's hair in movie 8 is the same style as when he comes out. Before he goes in it's long. So they all have to be after Cell becomes Perfect.
He goes in, comes out fights Cell, then goes back in after his loss. That's the only times I remember Future Trunks going in.
Even if you want to compare the fact that a flashback shows Gohan go ssj2 in the Spirit and Time Room it's not like Gohan could do it willingly. His anger was what made him go ssj2 while in Movie 8 he never showed anger only fear. And he was out before he could
do anything anyway.
I'm looking at the manga about the dodging. Gohan dodges at the beginning, Cell says he's going to use his full speed, and then grabs Gohan before he starts beating him jaround, then blasts him through a mountain. And Gohan walks out not really hurt at all. Starts talking how he doesn't want to fight, is looking down, and then Cell attacks him again. Gohan gets hit a few more times, hits Cell once, dodges energy beams, gets tricked by Cell and is grabbed.The anime probably puts alot more between this though. But I don't really pay attention to the anime.
He had plenty of time to heal in 7 years.Frozen and all that. But assuming he was weaker, if he had been healed and stronger there is no way he wouldn't be able to take on Fat Buu. Though in the end..Broli gets absorbed anyway so stronger or weaker he looses.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
No, it can be done by taking a snapshot of all the characters if you put them as being shortly after Gohan achieved SSJ.
No. You can't pick and chose because the anime people are idiots. Both Gohan and Goku are in the middle of their HBTC training. They are not full powere super saiyans, as the wiki erroneously states. Gohan is also younger and less muscular, yet he is sporting the clothes of Picolo which occurs AFTER leaving the time chamber.
Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 in 8, and since PIS doesn't matter since this is about their strength, we are going with middle of training in the HBTC.
Do you see, now, why I say DBZ is so full of plot holes that it can't be used to debate with, sometimes? It's too retarded like this.
One thing is 100% sure, though, they are no Full powered super saiyans.
That's twice.
But that doesn't matter. What matters is he could do it and it was used by Goku to explain his decision.
Also, Goku was getting the poop beaten out of him towards the end of movie 8. If that's not enough to set him off, I don't know what is. (Obviously, that's more than enough. Gohan did so against Radditz.)
I
The manga won't work here. Only the anime will as movie 8 is a "what if" alternate universe of DBZ that is non-canon, taken as a snapshot from the anime.
I
No. Frozen is frozen. All processes stopped. There's nothing logical about assuming he can heal when frozen...whiches is why he is sporting that nice "babied down" wound on his chest.
I
No, he losses by significant margin to Fat Buu.
SSJ2 > Broli
Fat Buu > SSJ2
And if you take into consideration that Buu, in any form, regernates, then Buu wins no matter what.
In the middle of their training is...After Trunks fights perfect Cell. The middle of their training would be the middle of that day period. It doesn't take half a day for them to loose to Cell.
THe manga is less full of plotholes. But yes, yes it is hard to debate. A movie more so than anything else since they are basically alternate timelines.
And I was just talking about the first time..After he fights Cell and looses. I thought you were talking about him going in a time before he fights Cell.
Gohan wasn't already beaten and out of energy, and could barley move when Radditz was hurting Gokou. In movie 8 Gohan was down for the count.
There is nothing to support ssj2 > Broli. Broli still has better feats than anybody except Kid Buu. And even if, and that's a big if, movie 8 Broli is < SSJ2 a healed Broli in Movie 10 would be much greater because of his genetics. And also ssj2 level isn't a set power limit. As proven when Gohan as an adult at ssj2 is weaker than kid ssj2. And Vegeta and Gokou are stronger ssj2. Just like ssj, and ssj3 power isn't set levels.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Gohan and Goku were NOT full power SSJ in movie 8.
They were about the same as Vegeta and Trunks in movie 8, whereas, full power super saiyan is significantly stronger. Vegeta gets super pissed to see Goku keeping up with Perfect Cell because even he, after 2 "days" in the HBTC, knew that Goku was much stronger than he was.
And, going by the healing logic you mentioned earlier. Let's pretend that it happened and Broli got stronger and Gohan was actually SSJ2 in movie 10.
Broli actually received battle damage from fighting Gohan, a Gohan who was "much weaker" than when he fought cell. It stands to reason that if Gohan was much stronger, he would have easily beaten Broli and here's why:
SSJ2 Gohan made a MUCH bigger kamehameha against Cell, with only 1 arm....compare that to the average size triple kamehameha fired by the three in Second Coming.
Now, compare that SSJ2 Vegeta fought evenly with SSJ2 Goku. Vegeta also tells Goku that he is stronger than when Gohan fought cell.
If a much weaker SSJ2 Gohan could give Broli battle damage, and a Kamehameha that was no where near the size of a single arm version Gohan fought when he was "much stronger", then what would a SSJ2 do that was stronger than the most powerful version of SSJ2?
Vegeta knew that he would have to fall under Babidi's spell to match Goku. There is nothing to back this up, but it stands to reason that Vegeta wasn't even at SSJ2, yet, considering the power amp that Babidi's spell gives.
Since Gohan and Goku were around the same power as Vegeta and Trunks in 8, they were obviously not full powered super saiyans. Knowing this, we can draw that a full powered super saiyan, which greatly eclipsed Vegeta and Trunks, would be able to put up a good fight against Broly, HOWEVER, they would still lose.
Considering Vegeta and Trunks were around the same levels in 8 as they were when Goku and Gohan fought cell, we an assume the Perfect Cell was in the same range as Broli as he quickly KO'd Vegeta with two strikes.
Now, I'll give speed to Perfect Cell, here, over Broli. But I'd give Broli the overall win against Perfect Cell. I say this only because Goku kept up, for the most part, with Broli and he wasn't even his Full Powered Super Saiyan self. (The DB wiki says that for im is SSJ1, third level.)
And, no, in movie 10, he'd be weaker because he didn't have all that "fighting" and "killing training" under his belt.
So, to recap:
If a much weaker SSJ2 Gohan caused damage to Broli, and this much weaker version of SSJ2 Gohan is literally, much weaker (as evidenced by the kamehameha...young SSJ2 Gohan fired a MUCH bigger one, by himself, with one hand, over the three people 7 years later), then a much stronger Gohan would be able to beat the Original Broli that hadn't gotten his saiyan healing amp.
Understand that Broli is just a little stronger than a Perfect Cell. He would beat Perfect Cell. I would say that the power gap between Goku and Perfect Cell would be comparable to the power gap between Perfect Cell and Broli.
Now, all the logic to conclude this:
Full powered SSJ2 > Broli
Fat Buu > SSJ2
Fat Buu >> Broli
__________________
Last edited by dadudemon on May 24th, 2009 at 05:49 AM
You keep assuming Vegeta and Trunks were around the same power as Gokou and Gohan in movie 8 though. There's nothing to suggest either way except that Gokou is able to take a lot more punishment than any of them and still get up.
Power and size don't always go together. Gohan's Kamehameha against Perfect Cell was smaller but just pushed through it. And I mean the first one. When Cell fired from the sky. Before he explodes himself.
I need to get Movie 10. I don't remember much of the fight against Gohan. The only thing I remember Gohan doing is knocking him into the lava. Is the Trunks fight, and the end that I remember from that movie. And Krillen in Piccolo clothes saving Gohan from getting killed.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Exactly. And the fact the Goku was able to ALMOST keep up with Broli when it came to speed also indicates that it was a Goku that had some HBTC training under his belt, but not quite enough to get Gohan to SSJ2, or for Goku or Gohan to be in full power ssj mode.
All the super saiyans were in a general ball park of each other's power in movie 8...with Goku being more durable...only because he is the strongest willed fighter out of all of them.
There isn't any way to tell how much stronger one was than anybody else. Piccolo did better than Vegeta when he should be a lot weaker, and did about as good as Trunks, and Gokou did.
And still doesn't change the fact that Gokou doing what he does was PIS, and that Broli didn't always use his speed, and that Broli still has the best feats out of anybody in DBZ next to Kid Buu in or out of canon material.
And in movie 10 Gohan didn't really do anything to Broli in their fight. When Broli was ssj and Gohan was base Gohan was able to fight back yes but when Gohan went ssj2 and Broli went lssj the only thing Gohan really did was knock him away from him once and that's because Broli was surprised Gohan was able to get out of that move he had him in, and the other was because Videl distracted Broli.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Regardless, he still ends up with battle damage to indicate he took damage from Gohan. Something not seen in movie 8 from the other Z warriors. We may or may not see all the blows exchanged from those two...but it is supposed to be significant.
Also, there's no denying that Gohan was much stronger at the cell games. Much much stronger, if we compare kamehamehas. Also, I provided logic on how Perfect Cell is not that far behind Broli and Gohan pwned Perfect Cell. Also, I provided logic that Goku and Gohan are not full power super saiyans in movie 8. Gohan is even younger.
This all lends itself to ssj2 > Broli...and not the movie 10 version of SSJ2. I'm referring to cell games Gohan and higher.
He didn't end up with any battle damage from Gohan. There fight wasn't even that long when Broli went LSSJ, and Gohan fainted right after Broli was trapped in the lava. Gohan hit him yes but because Broli let him and wasn't phased by the attacks. He pretty much did what he did in movie 8. Take the attacks head on not feeling them.
Yes, Gohan was much stronger in the Cell Games than in movie 10 but the size of a Kamehameha does not equal its power. Perfect Cell blasted a giant kamehameha at Earth as Gohan just stood there, and then right before it hit blasted a much smaller one that tore right through it like it was nothing. Gokou that came down to help fire the blast would also be much stronger than Super Perfect Cell even as ssj, and then add in Gohan who would be about Perfect Cell's level, and then Goten who is around 18's level though a bit weaker more than likely, and the blast would be much stronger. Size isn't an indication at all. And Broli held it back, and even pushed it back by adding more energy to his large blast.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
It most certainly does, especially in the context I am referring.
I agree, somewhat. However, you cannot claim, even remotely, that Gohan's attack against cell was not stronger, by ridiculous amounts, than the triple attack used in movie 10. And the vast majority of the time, the bigger the energy attack, the more powerful it is.
How can the attack Cell used, and Gohan matched and barely overcame be stronger when Gokou himself would be stronger than Super Perfect Cell? And Gohan while weaker was at Perfect Cell's level. and Goten is about as strong as 18. There is no way their combined attack would be weaker. Gohan and Goten's blast together sure that has a chance of being weaker but not when Gokou began helping.
And a vast majority of the time the blasts are usually the same size.And the blast that Gohan and Super Perfect Cell used wasn't anywhere near as big as what Cell used in the sky yet each blast was much more powerful. The blasts they did a beam struggle with wasn't even that big except in the center.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.