To have held back he'd have to have done it himself not as a reaction to the hit. And he's hit people plenty of times without them flying for miles in one direction.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
18 hit goten and trunks so hard that they could barely stop themselves..same thing when they fought each other: they could barely stop.
Vegeta, after going into the hyperbolic time chamber, was much much stronger than the androids. He was stronger than imperfect cell and semi-perfect cell. Semi-perfect cell made mince meat of the androids. Vegeta made mince meat of Semi-perfect cell, knocking him, literaly, several miles, when he wasn't even trying. If your claim that he "reacted" were true in any way, then Trunks would have gone flying many many miles...much further than when he fought Semi-Perfect cell as he was much stronger in the future, having trained to his absolute limits for 7 years straight.
In other words, Vegeta was GREATLY holding back, STILL, even though he reacted. Since Vegeta is uber uber strong and fast, he knows what would have sent him launching and would have just knocked him to the ground.
When Goten and Trunks fought they didn't knock each other miles, and they were going all out. Goten not being able to stop had more to do with the momentum he had built up, along with the blast pushing him forward. 18 also didn't hit them that far down., and there was two of them that weren't exactly in great working perfection.
Wait when did Vegeta knock Semi-Perfect Cell miles? When has anybody been punched miles away at that? Blasted yes but when have they been punched or kicked?
Vegeta didn't even realize what he had done until it was already over. That doesn't seem like he controlled it in any form at all. It wouldn't have been Vegeta holding back anything, it was a natural reaction to the hit not a conscious effort on Vegeta's part at all.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
This doesn't help your argument at all. It only furthers that Goten and Trunks aren't that strong.
Doesn't matter. 18 beat them down. The end.
Watch the two or three episodes where Vegeta fights him. Vegeta does it several times.
If that were true, then he would have flown for miles and miles. Since it's not...and Vegeta only hit him hard enough to knock him down, in a very much controlled manner, he held back HUGELY.
Vegeta and Gokou don't knock each other for miles, Gohan doesn't knock Cell for miles, Buu and Gokou don't knock each other for miles. How is Goten and Trunks not doing it any different?
18 is also a better fighter, and Goten and Trunks were hindered by the other not moving the same way.
Looking through the manga he never once knocks him miles away.
Except what part of Vegeta NOT realizing what he did make it controlled? And him not flying miles doesn't mean anything at all because nobody flies miles back, and even then Trunks was thrown back a few feet. Sure it probably wasn't a ful powered punch but it also wasn't a greatly held back one either but just a regular punch.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
All logical fallacies on your part. The differences in power and ability is not as great. Not even remotely close. However, the difference in power between Vegeta and Semi-perfect Cell is huge.
That doesn't help your case at all, either.
So, we're using soley the manga in a non-canon versus thread. Odd.
He did. You're misinterpretting his "look."
Incorrect. They do.
It was greatly held back. Very greatly held back.
Imperfect Cell is greater than a super saiyan. Semi-Perfect Cell is much greater than a super saiyan...but significantly less than a second level ssj. (not ssj2)
Trunks was barely a SSJ.
Basically, 18 is stronger than a SSJ, Trunks and Goten are weak SSJs, Perfect Cell is slightly weaker than Broli, 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan is much stronger than Cell, and Majin Buu is much stronger than one that is stronger than 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan.
By that logic, 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan is significantly stronger than cell.
Oh, and, no wish was made the movies. It was pretend.
The Kamehameha blast fired was only from Gohan and Goten and Goku never physically appeared. The blast was hugely weaker than the one SSJ2 Gohan fired against cell. Broli loses by a huge margin to Fat Buu...as does the rest of the universe.
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Last edited by dadudemon on May 30th, 2009 at 10:21 PM
And Vegeta never knocked Semi-Perfect Cell for miles..Perfect Cell never even knocked Krillen for miles.
She didn't knock them any farther than most people get knocked around in fights at all. The farthest a person has ever been knocked is Freeza by a surprise attack from Gokou and that was Base Gokou who was vastly weaker. Even Chibi Trunks has knocked Fat Buu away.
It's just faster to look up the manga, and the fight you're referring to is canon unlike Broli.
How?
They never go miles when fighting.
Except ssj doesn't have a defined power level at all...Or Trunks wouldn't have been vastly more powerful when he first comes than Gokou when he fought Freeza, and Gohan wouldn't have been more powerful than Gokou after the training, Just because they are ssj doesn't mean they must be weaker than 18 at all. All ssj does is multiply their power by fifty while fpssj would probably muliply it more while taking away the energy needed to use ssj.
There was a wish. Goten asks Shenron tohelp beat the monster , the balls glow, Gokou comes, and then the dragonballs fly off like they do after a wish. How is there no wish made? Shenron is the only thing that doesn't happen at all. Even then it's a non-canon movie.
How is the blast weaker? And there is no proof Gokou doesn't come down. Which him being there would make it stronger without Gohan and Goten.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
No Vegeta did. Perfect Cell was also very soft on Krillin. By all accounts, he should have punched or kicked right through Krillin.
Now, you can use the manga to be right. That's cool...
but how are you going to use the manga on Broli?
So now you're going to ignore feats just to make a non-conforming conclusion?
What makes more sense to you:
People not striking their hardest and this combined with the ability of the receiver to prevent themselves from flying
AND
When a particularly huge gap exists between the fighters, the reciever flies unless the fighter holds back. The difference between Krillin and Cell would basically make Krillin's power non-existant..yet...he wasn't severed or punched through like Piccolo to Babidi. Does that make sense to you?
In my mind, you can't claim someone went all out when there's more than enough evidence to suggest that there is an absurd power gap between the two.
I will not debate this point any longer simply because we are getting nowhere with it. Trunks was much weaker than Vegeta. On a huge scale, in fact. There's nothing left to debate if both of us acknowledge this point.
The manga cannot and should not be used in this discussion if it contradcits the anime or movies 8 and 10.
Mutiplying their power by 50 is not canon for the SSJ. No where does it state that it increases power by 50. Sure, that's about what happened with Goku. We don't even know if the power increase was specific to Goku or not.
What we can tell is that Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks were around the same power level when the Androids came around. Sure it probably went like so Goku>Vegeta>trunks or Vegeta>Goku>Trunks, but it wouldn't be a very large difference.
And this 18 comment refers to the initial SSJ power...not second level SSJ and not third level USSJ. FPSSJ is considered, really, a forth level in the level 1 SSJ levels. SSJ2 is an entirely different ascension from the others and leave behind the whole level 1 hierarchy.
Goten and Trunks are the first level SSJ. There is nothing in the manga, anime, or movies to suggest that they are anything but the initial transformation. Plain ol' SSJ. If you think that they are as strong or stronger than Vegeta was when he first fought 18, I think that that is a gross mistake.
The fact that Goten and Trunks were able to keep up with 18 at all before going SS proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was greatly holding back. Now, her comment about getting damaged by the energy blast is one of two things:
1. PIS.
2. Dramatic effect that resulted in PIS.
Take your pic. It can only be one of those two.
I agree on the FPSSJ point you made.
Nope. There was no wish, imo. I will not recongize that a wish was completed because there were too many things wrong with it in order for it to have been a wish. Now that that is settled, we don't have to discuss it anymore.
Now, if you want to argue, like others have done, that the movies are so dissimilar to the main continuity that correlations cannot really be drawn, then I can agree. If that's the case, then I can agree that movie 10 is only cannon to itself and no other movie, anime, manga matches it in the use of the Dragonballs so that's the way it is in the movie 10 universe. That would explain why Broli's guts are not flopping out of the huge gash that should but diagonally across his belly and chest...and it would explain the non-wish the occured.
Because it wasn't as large or concentrated. It dissolved Broli's blast...it did not punch through it...meaning it wasn't concentrated like Gohan's against Perfect Cell. It wasn't huge in that...it wasn't absurdly large like a few others have been from Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, etc.
There is. He is etheral during his decension and ascension. There is no Halo. He could not come to the Earth.
And it was stronger because his spirit was there encouraging his sons, but he physically was not there. It got bigger because his sons were holding back and weren't trying hard enough.
The manga is about as valid as the anime when it comes to Broli. Broli isn't part of either form. The only way to even attempt to do anything is by figuring out what power they would be at in the time they should be doing something else instead of fighting him.
How is it ignoring feats? People weaker have knocked vastly stronger people away, and at the same time stronger people haven't knocked vastly weaker people for miles. And yes, Trunks was vastly weaker since he was weaker than Piccolo. Doesn't mean he couldn't take a punch. He took a hit from Super Buu also.
..Everything in movie 8 contradicts the anime and the manga. And movie 10 itself contradicts parts of movie 8.
So we know for a fact Gokou went ssj, and had a power increase of 50, yet we are suppose to think it's only for Gokou?
There is no reason at all to assume they are weaker than 18 if they can keep up with her with or without ssj. Even holding back she would have been able to out-speed them if she was so much stronger. Just because it doesn't make sense how they are that strong doesn't mean they aren't that strong. Nothing at all contradicts it.
Movie 10 is canon unto itself..And movie 8 and 11. Those are the only things canon to it. The only thing that doesn't happen with the wish is the dragon coming out. But it's not part of continuity so what does that mean? Nothing at all.
Him not having a halo doesn't mean anything at all. Gokou doesn't have his halo in movie 9 when he hits Bojack.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
They aren't really an extension. More of just one-shot stories. The only movie that could be considered canon to the anime series is Dead Zone, and possibly 13 since in GT Trunks has the sword.
When has Buu ever held back??
The only canon thing we have is Gokou getting a 50x boost in ssj. There is nothing to contradict this at all. Why would the rest be any different?
And even holding back Trunks, Goten, and 18 still one-shot all their opponents, and Goten and Trunks weren't holding back when they fought except the ssj thing. And 18 was stronger she would have been able to hold back, one-shot them, or at the least not have any trouble with their speed. They were able to keep up with her in speed, and they were able to do it when they had trouble moving together. They'd be faster if they weren't working against each other.
He may not have been able to come down in 9..yet he does, and has no halo. Just like a wish shouldn't have been made in 10 but it was, and he comes down to help, no halo. The only difference is one is a wish that is screwed up so it shouldn't have happened and the other was Gokou breaking the laws of the world.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
Every single fight, he holds back at various points...cept probably Vegito.
Just because nothing contradicts it, does not mean it is correct. If you only see one car drive a top speed of 55MPH, you cannot automatically assume that all cars go that speed.
Logically, Goten would be the weakest, Vegeta the strongest since Vegeta was probably the strongest base-form to finaly turn SS.
Since I the burden of proof is on you, you must prove that all SSJ ascensions are initally a 50x boost in power. Even if your only example is a villian or Vegeta claiming that it is a 50x boost when it happens, and they said it with hyperbole, I'd still take that. Since it doesn't occur anywhere, it simply isn't SSJ law.
How does any of the contradict 19 holding waaaay back?
All good points. Couldn't agree more. It happened when all the "rules" were broken to make it happen, in both cases.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Jun 1st, 2009 at 01:45 AM
There were plenty of times he doesn't hold back. Buu wasn't exactly the type of villain to go easy on somebody.
How do cars even relate to super saiyan power up? Goten would be the weakest..because he'd be the weakest at base level. Vegeta wouldn't be stronger at base level than Gokou so why would he be strongest? He may have been the strongest base level to turn at one point but the power up wouldn't keep the same level it had when they first transformed if the person got stronger.
Why is it being claimed more proof than it actually being shown with the last canon power level that Gokou gets a 50x boost. What would the point of it showing Gokou with Kaioken x20 was powerless to do anything to Freeza, and then have ssj slightly above if the boost is just going to be different any other time?
Holding back doesn't mean they would be able to keep up with her in speed. And it wouldn't make Trunks' blast able to hurt her. There is no reason she would have any trouble with them if she had been holding back. It doesn't change her durability, or speed in any shape or form.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
I disagree. He held back just about every time. I can't think of one fight, except against Vegito, that he held back...but even then, he held back until he decided to do the candy and absorb thing. Name one fight where any iteration of Buu held back, cept kid buu...even then, Kid Buu held back during some portions.
It's just an analogy. You can think of any kind of analogy you want. 50 still only explicitly applied to Goku.
Vegeta had the strongest base-level because he trained like a madman in the gravity thingie at a much higher level than Goku ever did. He simply didn't know how to do it and kept becoming stronger and stronger at base level until he finally figured it out. This is just my opinion as there's no way to back up my claim other than the training thing.
This only applies to Goku and no one else. You have 0 proof for any other character.
Are you forgetting that the blast hurting here was complete PIS? Are you also forgetting that the whole fight was held back until the little dudes went super saiyan, and at that, she still beat them down when they were "50x" stronger.
Tell me, was the Final Flash Vegeta fired against her weaker than the one they fired against her?
He didn't hold back as Fat Buu against Gokou or Vegeta, he didn't hold back against Gotenks as Super Buu, he didn't hold back against Gohan as Super Buu, though I don't remember if he did as Gotenks absorbed Buu.
Why would Gokou's tranformation be any different in how it powers them up? There isn't much difference in SSJ power up and Kaioken except ssj doesn't strain the body and it's more powerful.
Except it wasn't at all. Even if you don't believe they are at her level Trunks' still could charge an attack enough that would hurt her. It's been proven at the start of DBZ it's possible to do. They never fought her at ssj. They turn ssj, blast, and then she uses destructo disk and then they take off because they were found out. And Trunks says how hard it is to move how they are.
Vegeta used Big Bang against 18..and yea Trunks' Final Flash looking attack was charged a bit more than Vegeta's Big Bang Attack. And the fact they are doing about as good as Vegeta did against 18 while being hindered and non-ssj it's kinda hard not to believe it was stronger even if you take out the fact the more charged an attack the stronger it'll be.
__________________ If you try something stupid, and it works it ain't stupid.
He did on several occasions...and different iterations against Gotenks.
He did as you're failing to realize that he could still turn him into Candy.
How do you know it is the exact same as every other character's? All I know is....there's absolutely NO proof that it is 50x for any other character and you have yet to provide it. Until you can prove that, even with an indirect reference from another character, you're making a baseless claim.
So it's different in every way except for the fact that it's a power-up.
No, it was PIS. I've already provided the logic for why it is PIS. There is not debating that unless you enjoy the plotholes...which I don't, at all. I hate them. It was cool as an 12 year old child...but even then, plot holes were noticeable. Doesn't change the fact that I enjoyed the show and still do.
But here's the problem: She is holding waaaay back...else it's massive PIS.
Why did she not punch right through the boys? Why didn't the fighting cause the clothes to rip right apart? I'll tell you...the whole thing was PIS. It was written solely for entertainment while taking a shit on all logic of power continuity from the Android saga. By all accounts, android 18 is SUPPOSED to be stronger than complete SSJ. (Not the incomplete one that fought frieza)
There's nothing left to debate, for me.
Unless you bring something new to discuss, your reply will be the last in this thread. If you bring up something new, I'll discuss that.
I do agree about it being PIS but that doesn't make them weaker than they are. There isn't any reason for them to be that strong except for the plot. Saying they aren't that strong because you don't like it doesn't make them weaker. They can't make their durability weaker and Goten was able to make Gohan say ow when Gohan was blocking. And Piccolo and Gokou proved a person can charge a energy attack much powerful than they are. So even if you believe they are weaker there is no reason no to think an attack CAN'T hurt her when it was a charged attack. Even if it seems Akira forgot about that or just never mentions it again anyway.
Except holding back has to do with their strength so they don't kill anybody. Her speed and durability have nothing to do with holding back.
Why didn't Gohan punch right through Cell? Why didn't Vegeta punch right through 19? We see somebody get punched through like twice. Cell Jr's, and Babidi who had a weak power level. The clothes didn't get ripped apart because it was like a 5 page battle, and they had trouble doing anything because Goten was blind, and Trunks couldn't move right. Goten and Trunks would be a ssj along the like of Future Trunks when he first came, and Vegeta against 18. They wouldn't be like Gokou against Freeza. And just because 18 and 17 were stronger than Vegeta when he was first ssj doesn't mean they are stronger than ssj level. They are just stronger than Vegeta was. Just like how Vegeta never became fpssj yet still passed Cell while just being able to go ssj, and not using ussj ever again.
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May 30th, 2009 03:06 AM
