Gender: Unspecified Location: IN YOUR MIND...MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Even when he locked her telepathy away he was still training Jean in how to use them, he apparently would unlocked them for sessions, like when her telepathy found Scott and Xavier could only sense Scott through Jeans mind, there was also one of those issues I think it was the first years or something when he was showing her how to create telepathic images and she created one of Scott. It's the reason why, when he unlocked her telepathy that she had some conscious way of using them, like when she mind blasted Juggs through his helmet. There is one battle when Jean is not using the Phoenix and beats Emma soundly, during Endsong, when Emma was in possession of the Phoenix Jean psi blasts her and removes it. As far as skill I put Jean over Emma, somebody said that she would win soley based on power, but Rachel has unlimited psionic power as well and is no where near Jean when it comes to restraint, if it were about only Jeans power without skill than Rachel would have overpowered Emma. Emma knows where she stands with Jean, she is reminded of it whenever she thinks about that box in Scotts head she can't open, she even admits Jean is the most gifted psi she has ever encountered.
I believe Jean still possessed part of the PF with her in Endsong as the Force was shattered and it had more to with Jeans affinity for the Phoenix and Emma's lack of affinity for it due to her not being able to give herself away emotionally to it.
I also believe the gifted thing is down to being more naturally talented which Xavier agrees with. Doesn't necessarily mean more skilled then either of them.
Emma also implied in the issue with X-23's bloody towel that she could easily obtain Scotts secrets by plucking it out of his mind...if she didn't mind harming Scott she could force the box open. It even states in Emma's first appearance when she attacks the X-Men that all Xavier's and Jeans psi-techniques that they taught to the other X-Men were useles against the White Queen (I'm paraphrasing btw).
BTW The following panel in that scan is the one which states that the one that killed her was Phoenix and not Jean right?
Gender: Unspecified Location: IN YOUR MIND...MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Phoenix said Jean was not possessed by it and if I am more talented than you in singing or running or anything naturally and I hone that natural talent while you train as well then I will be better at it the same way Jean is talented and still trained, talent training and power give her three times the edge over Emma. The psi techniques that non-telepaths were using against a telepath are not proof that she is better skilled, she used a sneak attacked and that is how Xavier was taken down she never took down Jean only the other non-telepaths.
Emma makes a distiniction between the two she says Jean is the most talented and that Phoenix killed her. right?
Nope you missed the entire point of Endsong then. The force was shattered into billions of pieces, a fraction of infinity is infinity. Jean told the Phoenix that she was part of it. She's one of it's pieces she had the force (Shown in all it's fiery glory) with her and she showed that she had a stronger affinity for it then Emma who couldn't even host it because she's not able to open herself up to the force emotionally.
Nope because it doesn't make sense to say that Jean more "gifted"(Skilled) then Xavier (Emma's abilties have been stated to rival that of Xavier).
If anything now that I think about it, she's the most gifted telepath Emma's ever known because of her Omega Level Mutation and her affinity/mutation (Depending on which retcon you're using) to host the Phoenix which is something Xavier also notes in X-Men First Class: Finals or whatever it's called.
I wasn't using the psi-techniques as proof that Emma is more skilled, I was using it as proof that Emma could break Scotts black box if she used force and wanted to hurt him.
Anyway Exiles is the closest thing you're going to get to non-Phoenix Jean vs. Emma and we all know how that ended up.
It depends on the writer really, Morrisons impression was that Jean (in his New X-Men) vs. Emma were evenly matched only when Jean taps into the Phoenix does she get the win. (From his interview in the Wizard Mag, I can get you the scan if you want it but give me a week to get back home first).
Carey believes Emma's abilities rival that of Xavier and back in Claremonts day he had Illyana say Emma was an Xavier level telepath,Xavier himself say that Emma was a telepath of the highest order as well as say that himself and Jean would be required to work out a powerful a mind as the White Queens when she was comatose.
Last edited by ExodusCloak on Sep 4th, 2009 at 03:21 PM
Also to add to that the Phoenix was at first surprised that Jean could hurt it without it but then Jean explained that she was one of it's pieces.
More evidence to support this theory is the context in which that sentence is presented. She says it when we are shown the Phoenix Force pretending to be Jean and "killing" her in UXM #131.
Last edited by ExodusCloak on Sep 4th, 2009 at 03:30 PM
Onslaught should probably be at the top of the list because Onslaught at full power included all of Xavier's, Magneto's, X-Man's and Franklin Richards' telepathic powers and abilities. Hyperstorm should also be near the top of the list. Hyperstorm's powers are an amalgam of Professor X, Magneto and the Phoenix Force. For both Onslaught and Hyperstorm that makes for very powerful telepathic powers and abilities. Onslaught, however is not a mutant. Onslaught is a being of pure psionic energy.
Furthermore, the Shadow King is not a mutant. The Shadow King is a parasitic entity. The Shadow King has often been retconned so it is impossible to determine whether the Shadow King is a mutant or not.
Cassandra Nova is also probably a more powerful telepath than even Xavier. Didn't Cassandra Nova defeat both Jean Grey and Xavier?
Stryfe managed to defeat both Jean Grey and Cyclops in the X-Cutioner's Song, so Stryfe should be able to easily defeat Xavier telepathically.
In addition, X-Man defeated Xavier telepathically.
Also, didn't Madelyne Pryor defeat Jean Grey telepathically?
Mr. Sinister is one of the five most skilled and experienced telepaths in the X-Men Universe. Probably on the level of ExProxy-Connection: keep-alive
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us' telepathy. The five are Exodus, Emma Frost, Xavier, Jean Grey and Mr. Sinister.
Well to be fair if Emma simply meant Jean was the most gifted psychic she ever met because of her Omgea level status she would have said the same thing about Rachel whose also Omega. My thing is I don't have a problem saying Emma and Jean are evenly matched in the art of Telepath the problem comes when people say Emma's stronger than Jean which according to the comics isn't true by far also Jean phoenix potential is a part of her powers so it's fair game. Same as Emma using her diamond form. The way I see it Jean's power Emma's the skill and that's the way it oughta be.
The way I see it, Emma has shown both Rachel and Nate Grey (both of whom are said to have unlimited psionic power) that being more skilled allows her to hang with and defeat them with her telepathy, this same logic would allow her to at least defend herself from Jean, but Jean is either just as skilled or more so, as Emma never stands a chance when facing Jean. There are things that Emma does that Jean does not or won't do there is nothing Emma can do that Jean can't do, but there are things that Jean can do that Emma can't.
1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus, Kid Omega
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Shadow King
Skill
1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Jean Gray
4: Psylocke
this seems like a accurate list, Emma is a self taught telepath like Xavier
while Jean is taught by Xavier
and we've never seen her do anything telepathically (without pheonix) that would/should lead anyone to think she's on par with Emma in terms of skill.
While jean was concentrating on throwing objects with her mind Emma was busy rustling around peoples minds and doing god knows what in the interest of "learning" jean on the other hand respects peoples boundaries and even if Charles taught her something, if she thought it unethical she would not do it so she has quite a bit of theory knowledge while Emma has practical.
another thing, why do people say Jean walked all over Emma during Morison's run is beyond me!? Hell i was impressed she managed to break free thanks to her skill in the face of all Jeans rage and power more than once!
With Phoenix jean beats everyone in creation! Hell she knew instinctively how to "save a universe" without being taught so once the phoenix is involved she will have skill to trump anyone!!
In the end i don't see how practical it is for jean (without phoenix) to be compared to Emma in the skill department it's just illogical!!!
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Feats that Jean has without Phoenix that is based all in skill is the way she took over Emmas body, with Emma still in it and transferred her tk into it. Without Phoenix Jean has enough skill to learn the "psychic keys" into the minds of N'gari demons and mind-screw a horde of them all while supercharging Wolverine and Thunderbird and absorbing their fatigue and fighting a Rutai sorcerer with illusions that made him think he was racked by Wolvies claws and blasted by Thunderbirds plasma. Telepathically taking control over Cables tk without his permission and using it to manipulate molecules to change clothes and even temporarily change his TO arm into flesh, layer herself and two others in a psychic illusion so convincing that the two people who were present and knew what she was doing didn't recognize them after it was done, it was compared to re-writing their very souls, travel the globe disguising her astral self in the form of birds in search of Xavier without Cerebro, separated Cyc from Apoc, sensitive enough to see through Apocs reality warps in Ages of Apocalypse, read the mind of a dog, psi blasts ravens. These are things that Jean can do but to date have never fallen under what Emma can do, Emmas psi tricks are creative not exclusive,most telepaths can do what she can do, but most cannot do what Jean can do and it has to do with more than power, for years she was not using the Phoenix or even tapping into her omega level potential, she was second to Xavier not because of power but because of skill, he already knew she had him the power department that is why he taught her everything she knows and not everything he knows about telepathy.
Sorry but that's a load of crap. Jean has had access to the Phoenix Force both times they've faced each other. In fact the first time as per most recent retcon is considered the actual Phoenix Force rather then Jean Grey.
Emma has latent telekinesis see Generation X, Synch also tapped into it. Also Jean did not take over Emma's body with Emma in it. Emma placed herself in a psychic coma in order to save herself from being killed by a Sentinel. Jean then transferred her mind into an empty shell. That very arc the Professor asked Jean for help to probe a mind as powerful as the White Queens and they still got zip.
Are you serious? Illusions while keeping a team together and mentally enhancing them? Emma has could do that in her sleep and Emma's multi-tasking feat in Messiah Complex is far more impressive then that. Heck I'm pretty sure Psylocke could do that super charge her team-mates, cast illusions and mind fry a bunch of demons. What exactly has Emma not been able to do there? Psi-Blast ravens talk to a dog? Emma's mind controlled animals in her ongoing. And an ecosystem that included a dragonfly by the way in Unlimited X-Men. Travel the globe as far as I know Jean only got to the Andes mountains in that issue? Emma's done better she blocked Sinister from using his powers halfway across the globe and beat 8 Skrull telepaths attached to 8 Cerebra's. She's also broadcasted globally to all mutants. Using TO Cables TK without his permission, not that impressive since hijacking powers is kind of an Emma thing plus he was on the same team as her and it's more a TK experience feat then TP...btw Jean was manifesting the Phoenix again after Casey's run and separating Apocalypse/Cyke is more TK then TP cause she unfused them.
Jeans best feats are done with the Phoenix Force the stuff you listed as non-Phoenix Jean is hardly impressive at all. Like I said it depends on the writer, Morrison felt that New X-Men Jean (Not tapping into the Force) and Emma were equal, Carey and Claremont feel she's on par with Xavier, Jeff Parker shows Emma as the Superior. Matt Fraction made Emma & Xavier Omega Level.
Nope, most gifted, if you look at the full page and the context that was said in it'd be down to Jeans affinity for the Phoenix Force since that was the page when Emma was describing the Force. Otherwise it would be Xavier who would be the most talented. And like I said before Xavier has said the exact same thing and is still the most powerful mutant mind, and it's mostly down to her affinity for the Force and that affinity is because of her personality.
And come to think of it Emma has done pretty well against the Cosmic Phoenix Force both times, the first time she managed to escape and both Xavier and the PF thought Emma died. The second time Emma held the memory from Hong Kong from Jean long enough for Cyke to break down the door.
Last edited by ExodusCloak on Oct 18th, 2009 at 03:00 PM
What do you mean affinity? It like saying Havok has an affinity to absorbing cosmic energy or Wolverine has an affinity to cell regeneration...it doesn't make sense. The ABSTRACT BEING that Thanos chills with Death told Jean that she is the phoenix and the phoenix is her. Jean is better than Emma in everyway shape or form. Xavier was so frightened of what Jean might become that he put multiple mental blocks in her mind since she was 10. Unlike Emma who has had the freedom of exploring her powers to the fullest.
Affinity as in the ability to Host the Phoenix Force, in Warsong Celeste can host the force because unlike the other Cuckoos she's capable of compassion. The Force reacts badly to negative emotion as seen in Yosts Vulcan What if and Paks Endsong. The Abstract Being Death in X-Men Forever 3 also said that the Phoenix chose her because of her love for her friends. Hosting the PF has nothing to do with Omega Potential, because the potential Death was talking of all humanity possesses. Even in Endsong it has nothing to do with being Omega, and everything to do with your personality.
The Jean that Emma fought initially wasn't Jean. If you look at the rest of the page you were quoting you'd know that. Jean was placed in a Phoenix Egg and the Force duplicated her. Brubaker and Fraction have made sure that CC's garbage is re-retconned.
Last edited by ExodusCloak on Oct 18th, 2009 at 03:20 PM
OK, Jean is not A PART of the Phoenix, she IS the Phoenix. And her feats not only require POWER, but skill. The fact that she carried Xavier's mind inside her own, broke it up into millions of fragments and planted a little memory of his in every person on earth and then reassembled his consciousness and put it back in his bodywhile suffering from septacemia is more SKILL than RAW POWER. Heck, when Emma and Jean were in Xavier's mind trying to free him from Cassandra, only Jean actually got through, unlike Emma, who got stuck. Jean has sent a telepathic signal from the moon before (she didn't have access to the Force at this time), has tracked an electronic brain (didn't have access to the force), dumping the equivalent of the encyclopedia into Cecilia Reyes' mind in seconds (no access to Force), or simultaneously accessing Cable's telekinesis to change them physically and then telepathically making them completely unrecognizable to even the closest family and friends. It was said their souls were different and that any sense of who they were was supressed. The level of change was so drastic that even sensors couldn't detect they were mutants. Jean was Phoenix in name only at this time. She even separated Apocalypse's spirit from Cyclops and she was Phoenix in NAME only at this time also. The Phoenix only returned to her when it recreated the telekinetic abilities that Jean gave to Psylocke. Heck, in the Onslaught saga, Onslaught tried to get to her inner connection to the Phoenix but he couldn't get through her psychic shields.
The fact of the matter is Jean is not just more powerful than Emma, she is more skilled. The Phoenix is not a power boost, but Jean's true psionic potential. She is not a part of it, she is 100% Phoenix (as said in Endsong). Even Xavier commented that what Jean did to his memories shouldn't be possible for an Omega-Level Mutant. At the end of the day, the feats are all Jean, Phoenix or no Phoenix (except from the Jean clone in the 70s). While Emma's SKILL is more capitalized on than her actual POWER, the opposite is done for Jean, yet it by no means makes her less skilled than Emma as there isn't a thing Emma can do that Jean can't.
I cant help but think that Cable is getting dumped on a bit here. I'd rank him atleast in the top 5 most skilled telepaths. He's simply been the best trained thanks to the askani & particuarly Blaquesmith (who i believe is supposedly Xavier level)
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