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Discrepancies in Star Trek science
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dadudemon
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Why couldn't Voyager go home at max warp the entire time?

Can someone answer this?



Do the dilithium crystal burn up faster at max warp on the Voyager, which is like 9.975?

If someone can answer this, I have counter points to that.


Please cite your sources/episodes. Wiki's are acceptable to me.


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2009 10:50 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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I think it still would have taken too long at maximum warp.

Warp 9.975 is "only" 9.968x10^9m/s (based on the TNG+ warp equations) and they had to travel hundreds of light years to get home. According to early episodes of Voyager the warp drive they used required refueling every 3 operational years.

I can't do the rest of the math right now but I think that's the gist of the argument.


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Old Post Jun 18th, 2009 11:56 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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Now that I've done the math . . .



9.968x10^9m/s
30,000 light years to travel
9.46x10^15m in one light year

9.46*10^15 x 30,000 = 2.838*10^22 (distance they need to go)
2.838*10^22 / 9.968*10^9 = 2.847*10^12 (travel time in seconds)

converted to years . . . 90277


And that is why Voyager couldn't just go home at max warp.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 12:21 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Now that I've done the math . . .



9.968x10^9m/s
30,000 light years to travel
9.46x10^15m in one light year

9.46*10^15 x 30,000 = 2.838*10^22 (distance they need to go)
2.838*10^22 / 9.968*10^9 = 2.847*10^12 (travel time in seconds)

converted to years . . . 90277


And that is why Voyager couldn't just go home at max warp.



Your solution is incorrect, but your math is correct, if that makes sense.


If this were a test, you'd get the question wrong, but get partial credit for doing the math correctly...I guess.



70,000 light years is the distance needed to get home.




They actually did state that at maximum warp, it would take like 17 years or something, but it burns up the cystals MUCH too quickly at max warp and the warp core gets hot. In a "cruising warp", it would take 75 years.

It says on wikipedia that it would take 75 years...so we'll go with that, assuming that the rabid trekkies are vigilant enough to keep that information accurate.

70000/75 = 933 and a third light years a year.

That's

933.33C











But, still, that's fast.





And if you wanted to know the KM traveled during that one year, it's 8826861530917886.4


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 01:19 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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Well I didn't know where in the Delta quadrant they were so I used to lowest numbers. I'd also say that the Voyager writers are obviously terrible at math if they said it would only take 17 years to get home.

Even if we use the 17 year figure it still isn't feasible. They have to refuel a minimum of every three years (according to you probably every few months or weeks at max warp). There's no way they could risk getting stuck in deep space with no warp drive.

Also, that couldn't be a question on a fair test. Your critique is based on just choosing different figures.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 01:42 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well I didn't know where in the Delta quadrant they were so I used to lowest numbers. I'd also say that the Voyager writers are obviously terrible at math if they said it would only take 17 years to get home.


Between 9.9 and 10, the speed increase is exponential. 10 is infinite velocity.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Even if we use the 17 year figure it still isn't feasible. They have to refuel a minimum of every three years (according to you probably every few months or weeks at max warp).


I would say with their max warp, it would be like.....every few hours. If they could sustain it at max, it would have taken them that long or something.


I could be wrong....it may have been far less. If I can figure out how fast 9.975 is, then I can come up with my own number.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
There's no way they could risk getting stuck in deep space with no warp drive.


Well, I have another argument that I'd like to bring to the discussion as soon as we can get the numbers out of the way.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Also, that couldn't be a question on a fair test. Your critique is based on just choosing different figures.


No, you didn't use the correct numbers in your calculation. I didn't provide them and I wasn' testing you. You used incorrect numbers on your own...I don't know why, either.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 01:52 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Between 9.9 and 10, the speed increase is exponential. 10 is infinite velocity.


Isn't it exponential from 1 to 9 as well?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I could be wrong....it may have been far less. If I can figure out how fast 9.975 is, then I can come up with my own number.


I don't think you can. The equation from 1 to 9 is wf*c^(10/3). After that the exponent "10/3" rises "exponentially but they don't actually say what exponent.

In reality ships are believed to travel at P/D where P is the speed they need to get there at the right time and D is the level of drama in megaDawsons.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, I have another argument that I'd like to bring to the discussion as soon as we can get the numbers out of the way.


What's that?

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
No, you didn't use the correct numbers in your calculation. I didn't provide them and I wasn' testing you. You used incorrect numbers on your own...I don't know why, either.


I took the distance figure from the wrong place.

The equation I used for calculating speed was wrong. I assumed the wc^(10/3) formula went all the way up to warp 10. Figuring out the actual speed at warp 9.975 seems impossible (unless you back track through distance and time but that's no fun and certain to be inconsistent with other times).



In any event. Do you think they should have been able to go back by just zooming at max warp or not, I'm confused.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:10 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Isn't it exponential from 1 to 9 as well?


Sure...but from 1 - 9, 9 isn't infinite.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't think you can. The equation from 1 to 9 is wf*c^(10/3). After that the exponent "10/3" rises "exponentially but they don't actually say what exponent.


I can because just want to calculate the speed and since we already have the distance, all we need is the speed. We don't need to use the formula...as it is obviously not as applicable to Voyager as it was to TNG.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In reality ships are believed to travel at P/D where P is the speed they need to get there at the right time and D is the level of drama in megaDawsons.


laughing laughing

I've never heard that before! That's so true.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
What's that?


I don't want to bring it up until we figure out this other stuff.



Here's what I need answered in order to use that argument:



1. How long it would take them at max warp, disregarding energy requirements.

2. How fast 9.975 is.

3. Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The equation I used for calculating speed was wrong. I assumed the wc^(10/3) formula went all the way up to warp 10. Figuring out the actual speed at warp 9.975 seems impossible (unless you back track through distance and time but that's no fun and certain to be inconsistent with other times).


I will have to look...but I think from 9.9 to 10, as "x" approaches 10, "y" approaches infinity. But from 1-9, it is just an exponential growth...no asymptotes.



quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In any event. Do you think they should have been able to go back by just zooming at max warp or not, I'm confused.



Yes. Maybe. I'm not sure. I am unsure why they couldn't go at max warp.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:33 AM
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Badabing
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Aside from Star Trek math not equating with real math, it would have taken them 70+- years to get home w/o any stops.

Janeway was the captain and decided that forging alliances and exploring was important enough to not make a bee line for Earth.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:39 AM
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Zampanů
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quote:
Between 9.9 and 10, the speed increase is exponential. 10 is infinite velocity.



However, in the 23rd century, warp factors of 10 and higher, seemed to denote extraordinarily fast, but not infinite, speeds. In 2267, for example, Nomad fired energy bolts that traveled at warp 15, as well as made the USS Enterprise (by improving efficiency in the antimatter input valve and energy release controls) go at least warp 11. When this happened, Montgomery Scott was in disbelief and stated that it would be impossible. (TOS: "The Changeling") Later that year, the Enterprise engaged an Orion scout ship capable of warp 10, if not higher speeds, since crew safety was of no concern to them, prompting Spock to remark that it was "interesting." (TOS: "Journey to Babel")

In 2268, the Enterprise achieved a speed of warp 14.1 after being sabotaged by a Kalandan planetary defense system, though at that velocity the ship came within moments of destroying itself. (TOS: "That Which Survives") Bele, upon commandeering the Enterprise, propelled the ship faster than warp 10. (TOS: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield")


(This was investigated b/c Riker sends the Enterprise to Warp 11 in a movie.) ((bolded))


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:53 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
However, in the 23rd century, warp factors of 10 and higher, seemed to denote extraordinarily fast, but not infinite, speeds. In 2267, for example, Nomad fired energy bolts that traveled at warp 15, as well as made the USS Enterprise (by improving efficiency in the antimatter input valve and energy release controls) go at least warp 11. When this happened, Montgomery Scott was in disbelief and stated that it would be impossible. (TOS: "The Changeling") Later that year, the Enterprise engaged an Orion scout ship capable of warp 10, if not higher speeds, since crew safety was of no concern to them, prompting Spock to remark that it was "interesting." (TOS: "Journey to Babel")

In 2268, the Enterprise achieved a speed of warp 14.1 after being sabotaged by a Kalandan planetary defense system, though at that velocity the ship came within moments of destroying itself. (TOS: "That Which Survives") Bele, upon commandeering the Enterprise, propelled the ship faster than warp 10. (TOS: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield")


(This was investigated b/c Riker sends the Enterprise to Warp 11 in a movie.) ((bolded))



Everything referenced is not applicable to Voyager.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:58 AM
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Zampanů
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Not Voyager specifically, no. I was observing (and hoping for an explanation?) that speeds above Warp 10 have been seen. Warp 10 wouldn't be infinity if warp 11 was available. Is there any evidence for an alternate scale being used?


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 03:20 AM
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Symmetric Chaos
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The scale used in TOS was a different one where 10 was not the maximum.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 03:33 AM
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Zampanů
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k then. Problem solved.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 03:56 AM
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jaden101
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quote:


2. How fast 9.975 is.

[/B]


This scale might help.

http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 10:08 AM
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Kinneary
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Eh, every ship in the series that goes to maximum warp is told by their engineer 'We can only sustain this for another ... minutes/hours.' So obviously maximum warp isn't something you can sustain for long periods of time. That's really all the evidence you need, since the actual science isn't... real science.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 02:58 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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Blasphemy!


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 03:22 PM
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darthmaul1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kinneary
Eh, every ship in the series that goes to maximum warp is told by their engineer 'We can only sustain this for another ... minutes/hours.' So obviously maximum warp isn't something you can sustain for long periods of time. That's really all the evidence you need, since the actual science isn't... real science.


good one! that is true. did they ever make it out of the milky way galaxy?? Cause whinny wesley had said in one episode that they have only charted 10% (or something like that) of our own galaxy and the rest is out there waiting for us.

and where is the delat quadrant? still in our galaxy? if so and they are clear on the other side of the galaxy and these calcs are correct
http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm

then they could of made it home in 6 months or less.

take a look at this map

http://www.inobambino.com/ino/quadrants.jpg


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Last edited by darthmaul1 on Jun 19th, 2009 at 09:56 PM

Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 09:48 PM
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jaden101
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by darthmaul1
good one! that is true. did they ever make it out of the milky way galaxy?? Cause whinny wesley had said in one episode that they have only charted 10% (or something like that) of our own galaxy and the rest is out there waiting for us.

and where is the delat quadrant? still in our galaxy? if so and they are clear on the other side of the galaxy and these calcs are correct
http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm

then they could of made it home in 6 months or less.

take a look at this map

http://www.inobambino.com/ino/quadrants.jpg


The calculations from that table (that i posted earlier) would show that between warp 9.9 and warp 9.99 then it would take between 13 and 33 years at maximum warp....Assuming, like other ST vessels, they can't sustain that velocity then reduce it from 9.975 to a flat warp 9 then it would take them 66 years to cross the galaxy from the edge of the delta quadrant to federation space.

To do it in 6 months they'd need to be doing it at 9.9999...given that it's a logarithmic scale 9.9999 is actually 200 times faster than warp 9 and some 25 times faster than 9.99


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 10:25 PM
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darthmaul1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
The calculations from that table (that i posted earlier) would show that between warp 9.9 and warp 9.99 then it would take between 13 and 33 years at maximum warp....Assuming, like other ST vessels, they can't sustain that velocity then reduce it from 9.975 to a flat warp 9 then it would take them 66 years to cross the galaxy from the edge of the delta quadrant to federation space.

To do it in 6 months they'd need to be doing it at 9.9999...given that it's a logarithmic scale 9.9999 is actually 200 times faster than warp 9 and some 25 times faster than 9.99


Cool, if they were in the millenium falcon they would be on the otherside of the galaxy by now.


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Old Post Jun 19th, 2009 11:58 PM
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