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Discrepancies in Star Trek science
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Zampanó
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Didn't TREK, THE MOTION PICTURE send Kirk through the center of the Galaxy? As in, you have to get there first?


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2009 04:40 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
This scale might help.

http://www.trekmania.net/science/warp_scale.htm



Cool.


Then I wasn't crazy by saying 17 years was how long it would take at max warp.

9.975 is much closer to 9.99 than 9.9.

Using logs..


x^(9.9y) = 3053

x^(9.99y) = 7912


What is x for x^(9.975y)?



I just assume x and y will be constants. it could be far more complex than that.


I actually need to plot this and figure out a way to do so.


But 9.975 is closer to 9.99 than it is 9.9 and since it is an assymptote, then it is much closer to 9.99's speed than 9.9's speed.



So 17 years may not be too far off.




Someone helpe me here.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2009 09:29 PM
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jaden101
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17 years does seem reasonable at max warp. Given that there isn't a massive rise in time differences between 9.9 and 9.99...

I think there's a piece about warp velocities in the next generation tech manual that explains it in depth.


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Old Post Jun 20th, 2009 09:41 PM
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jaden101
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Cool.


Then I wasn't crazy by saying 17 years was how long it would take at max warp.

9.975 is much closer to 9.99 than 9.9.

Using logs..


x^(9.9y) = 3053

x^(9.99y) = 7912


What is x for x^(9.975y)?



I just assume x and y will be constants. it could be far more complex than that.


I actually need to plot this and figure out a way to do so.


But 9.975 is closer to 9.99 than it is 9.9 and since it is an assymptote, then it is much closer to 9.99's speed than 9.9's speed.



So 17 years may not be too far off.




Someone helpe me here.


Found this

http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp

Which gives a time of 16.477 years to cross the galaxy at warp 9.975 smile


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Last edited by jaden101 on Jun 20th, 2009 at 09:47 PM

Old Post Jun 20th, 2009 09:44 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Found this

http://www.ussdragonstar.com/utilitycore/warpspeeds.asp

Which gives a time of 16.477 years to cross the galaxy at warp 9.975 smile


LOL


Dude...



Voyager was at about 70% of that distance...so at max warp, it would only have taken them 11.5339 years to get home.





Okay...knowing that, I can finally come to the final point that needs to be answered:

3. Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time?


I need to know exactly why.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 01:20 AM
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darthmaul1
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
LOL


Dude...



Voyager was at about 70% of that distance...so at max warp, it would only have taken them 11.5339 years to get home.





Okay...knowing that, I can finally come to the final point that needs to be answered:

3. Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time?


I need to know exactly why.



Cause they didn't have SCOTTY as chief engineer!!!!! and therefore belanna or what ever her name was would cause the ship to blow up


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 04:59 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Can someone answer this?



Do the dilithium crystal burn up faster at max warp on the Voyager, which is like 9.975?

If someone can answer this, I have counter points to that.


Please cite your sources/episodes. Wiki's are acceptable to me.


cos Janeway isn't Kirk.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 12:20 PM
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jaden101
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
LOL


Dude...



Voyager was at about 70% of that distance...so at max warp, it would only have taken them 11.5339 years to get home.





Okay...knowing that, I can finally come to the final point that needs to be answered:

3. Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time?


I need to know exactly why.


It can sustain that speed for long periods of time. That's the Intrepid class sustainable cruise velocity.

The reason it doesn't go at that speed constantly is because it uses up the dilithium crystals faster than travelling at slower speeds. They have to plot their travel time to take into account the possibility of running out of dilithium and so use the most effective speed between systems which may have dilithium.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 02:07 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
3. Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time?


I need to know exactly why.


It uses up their dilithium at a disproportionately high speed.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 03:24 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Why is voyager unable to sustain 9.975 for long periods of time?

I need to know exactly why.


1. Because then there'd be no show.
2. Pacing: maximum speed is not necessarily optimum speed.

smart


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 05:34 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
1. Because then there'd be no show.


It would still take about twelve years. That's plenty of time for a show with an adventure a week.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 06:07 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
It can sustain that speed for long periods of time. That's the Intrepid class sustainable cruise velocity.

The reason it doesn't go at that speed constantly is because it uses up the dilithium crystals faster than travelling at slower speeds. They have to plot their travel time to take into account the possibility of running out of dilithium and so use the most effective speed between systems which may have dilithium.



I also think there's something about it overheating or something.







So here's my last point:




They could have easily gotten home by replicating new dilithium crystals and also refitting the cooling system to be more efficient at maximum warp to prevent over heating.


So, like, yeah.



Someone might say that the complexities of the crystalline structure of dilithium makes it impossible to replicate a usable copy. Then I respond with, "What part of arranging it, molecule by molecule, as compared to the template, do you not understand? In other words, it's a retarded REACH to assume that they couldn't just use the replicator to make some dilithium.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 07:00 PM
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jaden101
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I also think there's something about it overheating or something.

So here's my last point:

They could have easily gotten home by replicating new dilithium crystals and also refitting the cooling system to be more efficient at maximum warp to prevent over heating.


So, like, yeah.

Someone might say that the complexities of the crystalline structure of dilithium makes it impossible to replicate a usable copy. Then I respond with, "What part of arranging it, molecule by molecule, as compared to the template, do you not understand? In other words, it's a retarded REACH to assume that they couldn't just use the replicator to make some dilithium.


quote:
Though low-quality artificial crystals can be grown or replicated, they are limited in the power of the reaction they can regulate without fragmenting, and are therefore largely unsuitable for warp drive applications


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 08:41 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Someone might say that the complexities of the crystalline structure of dilithium makes it impossible to replicate a usable copy. Then I respond with, "What part of arranging it, molecule by molecule, as compared to the template, do you not understand? In other words, it's a retarded REACH to assume that they couldn't just use the replicator to make some dilithium.


Or it would be in TNG hadn't unequivocally established that replicating dilithium was impossible with their tech.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 09:28 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It would still take about twelve years. That's plenty of time for a show with an adventure a week.
Figure roughly 14 years, with an average of one day adventure time for each encounter.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Someone might say that the complexities of the crystalline structure of dilithium makes it impossible to replicate a usable copy. Then I respond with, "What part of arranging it, molecule by molecule, as compared to the template, do you not understand? In other words, it's a retarded REACH to assume that they couldn't just use the replicator to make some dilithium.
Made of matter, dilithium is unique in that it handles both matter and antimatter. Perhaps it is this unprecedented quality which makes its replication especially difficult.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 09:32 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jaden101
Though low-quality artificial crystals can be grown or replicated, they are limited in the power of the reaction they can regulate without fragmenting, and are therefore largely unsuitable for warp drive applications


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Or it would be in TNG hadn't unequivocally established that replicating dilithium was impossible with their tech.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Made of matter, dilithium is unique in that it handles both matter and antimatter. Perhaps it is this unprecedented quality which makes its replication especially difficult.



Which is complete rubbish. It his simply a plot device only. There's no reason that something that can turn energy into matter and do it perfectly, molecule by molecule, that we end up with a sub-par replication. If replication wasn't perfect, then transporting wouldn't be, either, and we'd end up with absurd deformities...but that was worked out 2 centuries before Star Trek TNG.






But this is exactly what I wanted to be brought up. I knew all of the information in this thread, already, EXCEPT the time and math around 9.975.


I submit to you that the idea that dilithium cannot be replicated is rubbish and they could have done the entire trip without problems, at 9.975. big grin In other words, the writers have written themselves into a plot hole with the idea of replication and transporting whilst saying that some things cannot be replicated.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 10:36 PM
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Symmetric Chaos
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They've previously shown that replicators have flaws when constructing things that are complex on a molecular level (like food), so I see no reason that they would be able to create a highly specific form of a certain made up element.

Besides you can't override canon based on it being a plot device. ST is soft science-fiction, every word of it is a plot device.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 10:39 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
They've previously shown that replicators have flaws when constructing things that are complex on a molecular level (like food), so I see no reason that they would be able to create a highly specific form of a certain made up element.

Besides you can't override canon based on it being a plot device. ST is soft science-fiction, every word of it is a plot device.


You mean O'Brian saying that it doesn't taste as good as real food? Hardly a confirmation of what you're saying.

Fact is, replicators are repurposed transporter technology.







The point of this thread is to pick apart the whole reason Voyager or any ship cannot travel at max for long distances. It's just stupid that they can't. The writers came up with a plot device that doesn't bode well with me. Transportor technology can resequence a living organism, perfectly, yet it can't resquence the crystalline structure of a dilithium crystal, which would have a very easily predicted structure that could be much more easily replicated (not the sci-fi meaning of that) with a mathematical formula. Doing something like crystal would be much much easier for a replicator's computer to do than replicating complex organic colloids and solutions. Pretending that there's something special about a crystal is rubbish when we have living organisms being safely transported millions to billions of times without incident.


In fact, there's no reason that a replicator should not be able to make a more efficient dilithium crystal that lasts much longer due to the inefficient natural crystalization that ocurs during the formation process. Minor temperature, magnetic, etc. differences cause deformaties in crystals that could be easily worked out using the absurdly powerful supercomputers of the future. Something simple like a crystal could be easily improved.


I sure hope that, one day, I get to write for Star Trek. I'll correct little plot holes like this.


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Old Post Jun 21st, 2009 10:58 PM
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Mindship
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
Which is complete rubbish. It his simply a plot device only. There's no reason that something that can turn energy into matter and do it perfectly, molecule by molecule, that we end up with a sub-par replication. If replication wasn't perfect, then transporting wouldn't be, either, and we'd end up with absurd deformities...but that was worked out 2 centuries before Star Trek TNG.
Of course it's a plot device! Superdupertechnology is like having an open powerset: yeah, it's great when you want the characters to do something really cool, but then you've either got to technobabble why they can't do other things they should be able to, or just don't say anything and hope no one else notices. You, lad, have noticed. Here's another: if transporter tech is so perfect, what the hell do they need doctors for? Just do System Restore.


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2009 12:25 AM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Mindship
Of course it's a plot device! Superdupertechnology is like having an open powerset: yeah, it's great when you want the characters to do something really cool, but then you've either got to technobabble why they can't do other things they should be able to, or just don't say anything and hope no one else notices. You, lad, have noticed. Here's another: if transporter tech is so perfect, what the hell do they need doctors for? Just do System Restore.




Indeed.


Or replicate body parts and graft them back on, etc.


Even as a child, I wondered why in the world Dr. Beverly Crusher had to grow and replace Worf's spine when they could just replicate a new one and beam it in him perfectly integrated.


Each person DOES have a profile in the replicator when they leave the ship so that, when they return, they only come back as themselves without contagions...so their clothes should be perfectly restored with no battle damage or dust. big grin


Even though it's the future and it's Sci-Fi, I can still demand that they not be illogical for the sake of plot.


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Old Post Jun 22nd, 2009 12:30 AM
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