I don't think someone who could destroy the entire United States from a distance with his breathing has much to worry about.
Even if Morgoth is taken out; so what?
Even Sauron, who is one of the two most powerful Maias, has a level of power making the largest nuke green with envy.
Weaker Maia can uproot landmasses the size of small countries from the depths of the ocean and place them on the surface with their power, and Sauron himself shook the countryside for a thousand miles across with his blows while fighting Huan the God Dog. He also showed the ability to shield the Numenoreans from the power of the Valar, when they sent lightning to destroy Numenor.
I haven't even brought up how in the War of Wrath a full country-sized chunk of Middle-earth's landmass was destroyed in the fighting. Nor have I brought up the horror from outside of space Ungoliant, who at her peak could kill Morgoth, nor Ancalagon, who is large enough to crush three mountains with his fall.
Forget the movies. Middle-earth at its peak in the books would crush America with contemptuous ease. Much less every being who has ever been on Middle-earth.
I'd forgotten about Ungoliant. However it should be noted that she was only a threat to Morgoth after she'd drained a few of the great white trees, and even then she was beaten into retreat by Morgoth's Balrogs with their whips, so she isn't the end-all-be-all that some fans make her out to be.
In your view, where would Morgoth rank when compared to comics characters?
Herald? Trans? Skyfather?
I don't think his name ever came up in the Mixed Genre power tiers thread we had some years back.
“Where the longleaf pines are whispering
to him who loved them so.
Where the faint murmurs now dwindling
echo o’er tide and shore."
-A Grave Epitaph in Santa Rosa County, Florida; I wish I could remember the man's name.
He's run scared from mortal armies with medieval weaponry. He's not tanking any nukes.
Except that he really can't destroy the entire United States with his breathing, or else he would have done that to the Host of the Valar, which consisted largely of pre-gunpowder military formations, and else he would not have willingly sacrificed his own power to create orcs and send them along in pre-gunpowder military formations. Overall we would not have seen a war where pre-gunpowder military formations were at all relevant, yet indeed we do see a war where pre-gunpowder military formations win battles and pre-gunpowder military leaders are adulated for their combat ability.
So Middle Earth faces the out of context problem of a modern superpower?
Bullshit. Second age Sauron was scared so shitless by pre-gunpowder military formations of pre-gunpowder Elves and pre-gunpowder men that he fled into his pre-gunpowder fortress and hid there for years before coming out and getting killed by a few pre-gunpowder duelists.
Now I suspect somewhere here you're going to point out that these pre-gunpowder duelists and armies had "magical" weapons and armor, to which I'll ask you to name their actual feats and abilities, and if any of them compare to the abilities of real life weapons, and yes this is rhetorical.
Phrases like "shook the countryside for a thousand miles across" don't really tell us much about Sauron's actual combative abilities when you consider the metaphor and allusion Tolkien writes in. If he could literally cause seismic quakes with his blows, he wouldn't have ****ing fled from a pre-gunpowder military alliance of pre-gunpowder kingdoms, nor would any of the pre-gunpowder Elves have been relevant at all in the first age. Remember that Galadriel has been there from the beginning; she provides a nice basis of powerscaling given that she would have been decently powerful even by 1st age standards. While powerful, she certainly isn't tanking nukes or taking down armies.
Just FYI, much of this damage was committed by the Valar themselves, and the Valars are not involved as per the OP.
Oh? And have you considered the stat-line here beyond the sheer military capabilities of both sides, such as the fact that middle earth lacks radios or satellites, that its food supplies are completely vulnerable to demolition, that they are neither unified nor coordinated, and that they are not even likely aware of the geography or the makeup of the United States, and would not be able to figure such things out without years of ridiculously inefficient, pre-gunpowder trudging?
Morgoth can raise mountains and shit even at his weakest. That energy is well in excess of nukes. And he's no glass canon
"Bu- bu- bu- he didn't do what I think he should have! Those feats don't count!"
That's still an arguement?
What, do you expect it to be like DBZ or something?
It's just stylistic portrayal, he could if wanted to
Other than the fact it doesn't
>Elendil and Gil Galad
>a high elf lord and a guy on par with him
>"just pre gunpowder duelists"
And Numenor and Noldor being "mere medieval kingdoms"
Well I can't speak for Noldor (don't know enough), though guys who have steel ships capable of ramming straight through rocks and are larger than aircraft carriers, hypersonic arrows (described as crossing leagues in seconds, though I guess that's hyperbole according to you, amirite?) fired from steel bows, napalm bombs and such fun shit. Noldor is prolly on par with them
"I don't like it so i'll just cry hyperbole as per is a popular tactic with literature based feats"
Also if he can cause earthquakes as a side effect of a battle, guess what he can do as a direct effect, yeah
Also, energy is energy
Why does this remind me of the "Hulk, Thor and Herc aren't planet busters because they use cars against mooks alot!" argument on Spergbattles?
Ah, that's why
Also, welcome to fiction and inconsistencies
Well she's not taking a Tasr Bomba, kiloton nukes should be fairly easy for someone of her level though, she did destroy Dol Guldur, which should be town level at least
*Host of the Valar
Curious to know why this means anything to guys who move countires around, destroy mountain ranges by falling on them and can output single digit gigatons by screaming
__________________ "I'm the hand of a god! I'm the dark messiah! I'm the vengeful one!
Last edited by StealthRanger on Oct 9th, 2014 at 09:00 AM
We can do lots of shit to mountains. Quantify Morgoth's mountain busting abilities and why he still needs to sacrifice his own power to build armies of orcs. Vaguely appealing to "mountain busting" isn't really doing your side any favors; you've established that your most powerful player is comparable to a B-52. Yawn.
So I have to expect it to be like DBZ for Morgoth's power-set to match his actual performance and actual decisions in the actual narrative? If Morgoth just for some reason didn't want to or couldn't actually apply the feats you attribute to him in combat, and instead must rely on orc hordes, doesn't that kind of make your point null? We're comparing real-time combative ability, not theoretical power-sets.
Yeah, because obviously armies of swords and spears would stand a chance against the United States military.
Absolutely, and notice how you fail to actually quantify or substantiate your rebuttal beyond vaguely appealing to adjectives and descriptors like "high elf lord".
By the standards of a modern military with satellite communications, mechanized armies and a modern industrial complex, yes, they may as well be "mere medieval kingdoms". You do not help your case by hinging your argument on names and prestige rather than discussing real abilities.
Do you really think that would intimidate the US navy? What kind of fleet actually relies on ramming as a viable combat tactic? One that would be blown out of the water 500 kilometers before it ever reached line of sight of the nearest patrol boat.
...you seriously think this would impress a modern military with modern armor support and weaponry? Like, are you even remotely aware of the capabilities of a modern combat unit? Even the COD-lite version?
HOLY SHIT THEY HAVE STEEL BOWS WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL ME BEFORE I DUG MYSELF INTO A HOLE LIKE THIS!?
Yeah, you reference him as a "high elven lord" and apparently that refutes my describing him as "pre-gunpowder", because obviously a fleet of B-52s can't replicate the feats of a "high elven lord".
Quantify it if you can. Please quantify Sauron's seismic quakes, explain their combat utility and their apparent absence in various crucial narrative points, and explain how the hell you expect them to defeat a modern military-industrial complex with some earthquakes.
And he does this...where? And this would give them the win over the US military...how?
...like, is this even worth a reply?
So you dismiss any pretense of actually creating a consistent, logical model of your side's capabilities, and instead openly admit to cherry picking the most liberal interpretations of specific passages of prose that even the most numb-skulled high school freshman would notice is ridiculously flowery language, ignore all contradicting evidence, and even then,, fail to produce anything beyond "he can create earthquakes -> ???? -> profit!!! victory!!!!"?
And you base this off of...what, exactly? Since when do we se Gandalf, more powerful than Galadriel, tank nuclear warheads? Last I recall he was running terrified up a tree against a pack of wargs. Since when do we see even Smaug replicating any feat that would suggest that range of durability?
It says she cast down its walls, and even if we once again go by your policy of ignoring all literary considerations and taking everything hyper-literally, that's absolutely nothing that an 18th century division couldn't do. An artillery barrage >>>>> Galadriel, but apparently this feat proves she's nuke-proof, or something.
Well aside from your throwing around energy values without any sort of justification, it obviously means quite a bit to them, given that Morgoth, your most powerful contender, found it strategic to sacrifice his own power to build orcs.
We still summarize with your taking the most generous interpretations of smiles and metaphors, and then still refusing to actually demonstrate their impacts - what Sauron being able to produce earthquakes is supposed to scare us with, why a modern military force would be intimidated by somebody tearing down a fortress, etc. You haven't come up with a single manner in which the ME forces counter America's overwhelming airpower, naval power, or "cruise missile from 200 kilometers away" power. It holds enormous tactical, strategic and logistical advantages that you're just handwaving for no good reason.