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Something everyone wonder, WHO WOULD WIN, WITCH KING OR GANDALF?
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Evilbigfoot
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GAndalf wins haven't you played the games =p


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2009 05:25 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
ToMAYto--toMAHto. Different kingdoms, different cultures, different physiology, different gifts and powers. Either way, all Men who awoke with the Sun. It's like the Quendi splitting in to the Avari and the Eldar, the Eldar in to the Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri, and from there in to Calaquendi and Moriquendi. All different peoples with their own abilities and attributes, but all Elves

Numem and the other men were very different. They even had gun and cannons. They were much stronger, faster, smarter. They were powerful wizards. They had their life spam prolonged. They were once human like us but no longer.

Same can be said about Elves. Mirkwood elves can't see in both realms (Where Nuzgul can be seen, and normal), but the other elves from Rivendel can see. Maybe they lost that ability, but there are difference.

The way I see it, Gondor/Rohan, Arnor, Hobbits, & Numem are all from the same tree, but they have their difference. Just like a Alligator and Crocodile :P

quote:
We can debate the Witch-King's intentions until doomsday and we'll never prove it. It just really seems strange though that he would run, when killing such a powerful and important being such as Glorfindel is within his capacity (and his physical range)

Would you fight an entire army, a powerful warrior, and Glorfindel by yourself?? Glorfindel alone is power and imagine all those arrows, attacks of everyone else. Why fight that when you already did what you needed to.



quote:
Either way, both are powerful beings, both slew and were slain by their respective Balrogs, both wielded Gondolin weapons (presumably in Glorfindel's case), and Gandalf possessed Narya (though admittedly, it's power of kindling hope as no physical power, but would be effective against the Dementor-esque nature of the Nazgul). Taking such in to consideration, along with Gandalf's status as a Maia with Valar-enhanced magical abilities, it's not unreasonable in the slightest to conceive that unleashing his actual powers on the Witch-King would defeat him.

Well there is a slight difference. Gandalf fought and died from his wounds. Glorfindel was close to killing Balrog. The balrog was all but killed. Glorfindel was unharmed, but them Balrog pulled him down the mountain where they both died. The same Glorfindel later took on the 9 Nuzguls. Makes you wonder how powerful he is.

Also, I don't think andalf can use his full power in that body. I don't remember quite well, but depending on the form the Maiar take, they are limited. Remember when Sauron got defeated when he took a form of a wolf? I don't remember it quite well, I am sure I am correct on that part.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2009 02:49 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Numem and the other men were very different. They even had gun and cannons. They were much stronger, faster, smarter. They were powerful wizards. They had their life spam prolonged. They were once human like us but no longer.

Same can be said about Elves. Mirkwood elves can't see in both realms (Where Nuzgul can be seen, and normal), but the other elves from Rivendel can see. Maybe they lost that ability, but there are difference.

The way I see it, Gondor/Rohan, Arnor, Hobbits, & Numem are all from the same tree, but they have their difference. Just like a Alligator and Crocodile :P
Yeah, I know. They're all different, but they are all of the Race of Men.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Would you fight an entire army, a powerful warrior, and Glorfindel by yourself?? Glorfindel alone is power and imagine all those arrows, attacks of everyone else. Why fight that when you already did what you needed to.
Again, Witch-King's true intentions=Who knows. But if it was Glorfindel's power he was afraid of, what were these powers, and who can prove Gandalf the White doesn't have them?




quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well there is a slight difference. Gandalf fought and died from his wounds. Glorfindel was close to killing Balrog. The balrog was all but killed. Glorfindel was unharmed, but them Balrog pulled him down the mountain where they both died. The same Glorfindel later took on the 9 Nuzguls. Makes you wonder how powerful he is.

Also, I don't think andalf can use his full power in that body. I don't remember quite well, but depending on the form the Maiar take, they are limited. Remember when Sauron got defeated when he took a form of a wolf? I don't remember it quite well, I am sure I am correct on that part.
I heard not that the Istari would be ruined from it, but that they were strictly prohibited from it (the Valar afraid of another Beleriand), their purpose being to guide Middle Earth not personally defend it. It's that unleashed Gandalf I speak of.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2009 07:41 PM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
Yeah, I know. They're all different, but they are all of the Race of Men.

Men? As in Male? Or Humans, like us?



quote:
Again, Witch-King's true intentions=Who knows. But if it was Glorfindel's power he was afraid of, what were these powers, and who can prove Gandalf the White doesn't have them?

His intentions were to destroy Arnor. He succeeded! Why stay any longer.

quote:
I heard not that the Istari would be ruined from it, but that they were strictly prohibited from it (the Valar afraid of another Beleriand), their purpose being to guide Middle Earth not personally defend it. It's that unleashed Gandalf I speak of.

Yes, All Maiar are restricted in the forms they take. Gandalf is restricted/prohibited in two ways.
1- Old body of a wizard
2- Can only use his power to rally the people of ME against Sauron. The Istari weren't allowed to win the fight. Otherwise, a Valar can just come down and kill everyone. What would that teach the people in ME? nothing!


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2009 08:47 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Men? As in Male? Or Humans, like us?
Humans. Men. Those who awoke with the Sun. Numenorians, Easterlings, Haradrim, Eotheod---all of them are Men.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
His intentions were to destroy Arnor. He succeeded! Why stay any longer.
Why flee? Kill Glorfindel. Be done with it.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yes, All Maiar are restricted in the forms they take. Gandalf is restricted/prohibited in two ways.
1- Old body of a wizard
2- Can only use his power to rally the people of ME against Sauron. The Istari weren't allowed to win the fight. Otherwise, a Valar can just come down and kill everyone. What would that teach the people in ME? nothing!
Really have to wonder at the collective wisdom of such gods. They can create existence through song but can't stop a rogue demi-god without obliterating everything? Pfff.


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Old Post Aug 25th, 2009 09:16 PM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
Humans. Men. Those who awoke with the Sun. Numenorians, Easterlings, Haradrim, Eotheod---all of them are Men.

But all are different, in a way. same species though.

quote:
Why flee? Kill Glorfindel. Be done with it.

What about the army, and everybody else. Besides that, Glorfindel was not scared to take on 9 Nuzguk, this includes the Witch-King. In addition, it's still speculation that Witch-king could even take on Glorfindel and win.



quote:
Really have to wonder at the collective wisdom of such gods. They can create existence through song but can't stop a rogue demi-god without obliterating everything? Pfff.

Well Valar and Maiar are the same things. Valar were just 14 Maiar who were stronger. If they fight, they would reck continent. Kinda stupid like you said though.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2009 02:11 AM
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Khamul 666
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Gandalf probably would be ristricted in "the grey" form he couldnt kill a balrog without getting taken down with it . so when he was "reborn" in a more powerful body he couldve taken out that balrog without it going kamakazi. Same as morgoth getting wounded in his wolf form .
in the right condition I think Gandalf could win


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2009 02:37 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
But all are different, in a way. same species though.
Yup.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
What about the army, and everybody else. Besides that, Glorfindel was not scared to take on 9 Nuzguk, this includes the Witch-King. In addition, it's still speculation that Witch-king could even take on Glorfindel and win.
Why wouldn't he be able to?




quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Well Valar and Maiar are the same things. Valar were just 14 Maiar who were stronger. If they fight, they would reck continent. Kinda stupid like you said though.
Yeah, all Ainur. But the Valar are dumb. Instead this time, don't send EVERYTHING at the Dark Lord, juts send like Manwe or Ulmo or someone. One Vala should do the trick against Sauron. Kind of a poorly thought out plot device on Tolkien's part.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2009 05:13 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yup.

thumb up

quote:
Why wouldn't he be able to?

Glorfindel took on a Maia. He even took on 9 Nuzgul. I would think he is a dangerous guy.

quote:
Yeah, all Ainur. But the Valar are dumb. Instead this time, don't send EVERYTHING at the Dark Lord, juts send like Manwe or Ulmo or someone. One Vala should do the trick against Sauron. Kind of a poorly thought out plot device on Tolkien's part.

I don't think he should ever have talked about Valar, Eru..etc. It kinds weakened everything about the 3rd age.


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Old Post Aug 26th, 2009 01:25 PM
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Incanus
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Ok, so
1) Gandalf had the sword of Turgon
2)Glorfindel had his sword form Gondolin
3)Gandalf wasw limited in his powers, he could never openly display them against the DarkLord
4)It took an army of Maiar and elves to fight an army of Maiar, orcs, Krakens, dragons, etc. To many to list. Watcher=Kraken btw.
5)Gandalf wins because the WK is just a man
6)Numenoreans were regular Men, but with prolonged lifespans, and were more elvish in appearence and nature,m they wernt sorcerers or anything, "They came among the peoples of Middle-Eartj, ande taught them how to sow crops, make wine, and order things. Then when they left, all people could remember were memories of the SeaKings" The Akallabeth.


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
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Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 26th, 2009 09:17 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Glorfindel took on a Maia. He even took on 9 Nuzgul. I would think he is a dangerous guy.
So did Gandalf, and that was before Eru boosted his power. And he chased away (not all 9) Nazgul with his little flashlight-thingy. Really, if Glorfindel could do everything Gandalf could, and more... don't send a Maiar to do an Elf's job.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't think he should ever have talked about Valar, Eru..etc. It kinds weakened everything about the 3rd age.
Definitely, or at least gave them a better excuse as to why they didn't intervene. You know something along the lines of their godly presence having adverse effects on people, or Eru personally banning them from intervening.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2009 12:46 AM
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Khamul 666
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haha this is funny watching everyone argue about whos more badass,Gandalf or Glorfindel .

I'm not sure but I think Gandalf was probably more clever than Glorfindel.

Tolkien most likely wrote about the Valar to provide backround and the story of gods , they didnt intervene cause they knew ME would win in the end .
A different example would be if satin arose from Tartaraus I dont think God would come with an army of angels .


__________________
This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king ruins town,
And beats high mountain down.

Old Post Aug 27th, 2009 01:42 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote:
Ok, so 1) Gandalf had the sword of Turgon 2)Glorfindel had his sword form Gondolin 3)Gandalf wasw limited in his powers, he could never openly display them against the DarkLord 4)It took an army of Maiar and elves to fight an army of Maiar, orcs, Krakens, dragons, etc. To many to list. Watcher=Kraken btw. 5)Gandalf wins because the WK is just a man 6)Numenoreans were regular Men, but with prolonged lifespans, and were more elvish in appearence and nature,m they wernt sorcerers or anything, "They came among the peoples of Middle-Eartj, ande taught them how to sow crops, make wine, and order things. Then when they left, all people could remember were memories of the SeaKings" The Akallabeth.

1)Your point?
2) Your Point?
3) He was limited in his power. He can't use all his power because
- He will become corrupted even if his intentions are good
- He took the form of an old man, that is what Istari had to do.
- He was sent to unite, and rally the people of ME, and not win the war for them. I am sure the Istari>Sauron easily.
4) What?
5) WK is not just a man. He is immortal(in a way). He lives in both realms. He had a barrier that an opponent had to breach. If he was just a man, Gandalf wouldn't have been unsure if he can beat him or not.
6) They weren't just ordinary men. Like you said, they had prolong life span, but they WERE wizards;just like Mouth Of Sauron. They had huge knowledge as well. They were had cannons as weapons. Not only that, but they had a boost in strength and other attributes.

quote:
So did Gandalf, and that was before Eru boosted his power. And he chased away (not all 9) Nazgul with his little flashlight-thingy. Really, if Glorfindel could do everything Gandalf could, and more... don't send a Maiar to do an Elf's job.

Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru.

I admitted that Gandalf was weaker when he fought the Balrog, but he died with the Balrog fight. Glorfindel didn't die because of the wound, he already won and was dragged down the mountain. As for Gandalf being sent back to ME; Glorfindel was sent back as well. After he died, he came back to ME.

It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's.


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Old Post Aug 27th, 2009 07:00 PM
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Incanus
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
1)Your point?
2) Your Point?
Point is, a sword from Gondolin had nothing special over the other, Gndalfs would be better if that were true.
3) He was limited in his power. He can't use all his power because
- He will become corrupted even if his intentions are good
No, that is with the Ring, not his powerrs, he was bann=ed from using his full might.
- He took the form of an old man, that is what Istari had to do.
Obviously,. if I didnt know that, i wouldnt be posting, would I
- He was sent to unite, and rally the people of ME, and not win the war for them. I am sure the Istari>Sauron easily.
No, it was said that Sauron>Maia who came later.
4) What?
Was in a Tolkien bestiary
5) WK is not just a man. He is immortal(in a way). He lives in both realms. He had a barrier that an opponent had to breach. If he was just a man, Gandalf wouldn't have been unsure if he can beat him or not.
He was a Numenorean (MAN) not anything omgwtfheisubercuzhesnotaman
6) They weren't just ordinary men. Like you said, they had prolong life span, but they WERE wizards;just like Mouth Of Sauron. They had huge knowledge as well. They were had cannons as weapons. No, show me the source for cannons. The Mouth was a wizard as he learned it from SAURON, a.k.a. The Necromancer of Dol Guldur, a.k.a. a Maia.

Not only that, but they had a boost in strength and other attributes.
NOt a video game, no "attributes" There are strengths and weaknesses.

Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru. No, it was Eru, as the Valar had no power over it. Eru didnt ill Morgoth because he wanted it all to happen, to help the Music reach its conclusion, or the Dagor Dagorath would never come to be.

I admitted that Gandalf was weaker when he fought the Balrog, but he died with the Balrog fight. Glorfindel didn't die because of the wound, he already won and was dragged down the mountain. As for Gandalf being sent back to ME; Glorfindel was sent back as well. After he died, he came back to ME. Both died, dosnt matter. Durin's Bane was a powerful balrog, not sure about the other one. Shjow the source that says Glorfindel is from Gondolin, as there would have to have been more than one. Not suprised if he is, however.

It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's. Duh


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 27th, 2009 09:05 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Eru didn't boost his power. It was probably the Valar. Eru believes in free will. This is why Morgoth wasn't killed by Eru.
I will be buggered if I'm going out to find the source, but I distinctly recall from some appendix or something (and the Internets, having just looked) that the Valar couldn't revive him and that Eru had to intervene personally (same with Numenor).



quote: (post)
Originally posted by xJLxKing
It was Gandalf's job to rally, not Glorfindel's.
Yeah, I know. It just seems dumb of the Valar (and Tolkien) to send an Elf who kills BALROGS back to help out Middle Earth during the Witch-King's incursions in to Eriador, and succeed, but not have him do SHIT all during the events of LotR. I mean, if he can do amazing stuff like that, why make Gandalf so prominent? Give Glorfindel Narya, show him killing some Balrogs and Nazgul, and wham! You've got hope and inspiration for the people.

He was a dumb inclusion. Should have made his resurrected self some different (non-uber) Elf.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2009 02:17 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I will be buggered if I'm going out to find the source, but I distinctly recall from some appendix or something (and the Internets, having just looked) that the Valar couldn't revive him and that Eru had to intervene personally (same with Numenor).


Well the thing is, Maiar and Valars can't die. They are spirits. However, they can weakened to the point where they are so weak that they can never take a physical form of any kind. Whether it be a dog, an old man, or an elf. They can also be sent to the void where Morgoth is.

For Numenor, I believe he did intervene. He took away their prolonged lifespan and other stuff because they didn't believe in him. Morgoth(i think) corrupted them.

quote:
Yeah, I know. It just seems dumb of the Valar (and Tolkien) to send an Elf who kills BALROGS back to help out Middle Earth during the Witch-King's incursions in to Eriador, and succeed, but not have him do SHIT all during the events of LotR. I mean, if he can do amazing stuff like that, why make Gandalf so prominent? Give Glorfindel Narya, show him killing some Balrogs and Nazgul, and wham! You've got hope and inspiration for the people. He was a dumb inclusion. Should have made his resurrected self some different (non-uber) Elf.

Well, Gandalf was a very wise Maiar. He was known everywhere. In addition, normal weapon couldn't really hurt him as GTW.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2009 05:00 AM
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Incanus
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Your right.




A question to XJL, if they had cannons, then why didnt they have them at the War oif the Last Allianbce, there would soubtlessly have been at leaqst 1 guy who makes them, the shot, and powder for them among the Faitrhful, so they would have had them. Rebuke if you can, which I highly doubt if it is to include anything that would make me belive they did.


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Anar
Nanye i ne Anduril i macil Elendilo
Lercuvanten i moli Mordoreo
Isil
Turgon aran Gondolin tortha gar a matha, i vegil Glamdring gud dae lo, dam an Glamhoth.

Old Post Aug 28th, 2009 08:33 PM
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xJLxKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Incanus
Your right.




A question to XJL, if they had cannons, then why didnt they have them at the War oif the Last Allianbce, there would soubtlessly have been at leaqst 1 guy who makes them, the shot, and powder for them among the Faitrhful, so they would have had them. Rebuke if you can, which I highly doubt if it is to include anything that would make me belive they did.

What? the Numem's homeland sunk because they tried to reach the undying land. They were halfway between ME and the UL.


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Old Post Aug 28th, 2009 09:12 PM
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Zampanů
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He's asking why the Numenorians (Gondor) didn't use cannons against the hordes of Orcs on the slopes of Mt. Doom at the end of the 2nd age. The one that took out Sauron?


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Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 02:12 AM
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xJLxKing
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He's asking why the Numenorians (Gondor) didn't use cannons against the hordes of Orcs on the slopes of Mt. Doom at the end of the 2nd age. The one that took out Sauron?

They aren't the same as the Numernorians who were struck down by the Valar. At least that why I think it's they didn't.
Besides, Sauron was already losing. That's why he came out to battle. His forces were driven back all the way to the slopes of Mt.Doom.

Minas Tirith was built by them. That shows something! The hard thing about sieging Minas Tirith was that it's walls were nearly impervious because of the master craftsmanship of the Numenoreans. A big deal was made of this in RotK because the only viable point of attack was the gate.

Same goes for the Tower that Saruman lived in(can't spell name)


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Last edited by xJLxKing on Aug 29th, 2009 at 03:59 AM

Old Post Aug 29th, 2009 03:45 AM
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