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IGN - Top 100 villains
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Lek Kuen
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze


Red Skull managed to take care of Captain America,



thats what he thinks


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 05:34 PM
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I don't think anyone who has done "good" can be considered a villain anymore.

Just an opponent.

-AC


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 05:57 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by jalek moye
thats what he thinks


Hehe, we'll have to wait and see. I personally think that Lex should possibly have gotten the victory.

It's funny to see hypocrites crying that Magneto should not win, yet have no qualms about CATWOMAN being on the list. Last time I checked Magneto's rallied troops to take over the free world, killed a LOT of people and so on.

Stealing diamonds, beating up criminals and playing with Batman just doesn't measure up.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 05:59 PM
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Juntai
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I'm a big fan of Lex too.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 06:06 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't think anyone who has done "good" can be considered a villain anymore.

Just an opponent.

-AC


When Thanos destroyed the universe, he had accomplished good deeds on beforehand D:

So he's just an opponent?


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 06:19 PM
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That was a major one off.

Magneto is closer to an anti-hero than he is a villain.

-AC


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 06:54 PM
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[SPOILER - highlight to read]: magneto above characters like doom, joker, lex, vandal savage, darkseid, etc? that's just... meh.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 07:03 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007
[SPOILER - highlight to read]: magneto above characters like doom, joker, lex, vandal savage, darkseid, etc? that's just... meh.


Common now, what has Joker done?


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 07:20 PM
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Philosophía
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Paralyzed Barabara, tortured Gordon, killed Jason Todd, killed Sarah (Gordon's wife). Had Nightwing kill him for practically nothing only to be brought back , had Superman almost killing him by telling him that the only way to save Lois is to do so. Even Batman snapped and was about to kill him in Hush when it seemed like he killed Tommy Elliot.

And these are only from the top of my head. There is of course the Joker: Last Laugh and Emperor Joker crossovers but I don't feel those kind of stuff make him any justice, he is better when he is on a street-level. Read Detective Comics 826. Batman 663 (it's a prose story from Grant Morrison, pretty complex). And there are tons of other awesome stories with him.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 07:37 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't think anyone who has done "good" can be considered a villain anymore.

Just an opponent.

-AC


Juggernaut has done good from time to time but his evil deeds completely outweigh his good ones so is he an opponent despite his own brother saying that he is beyond redemption?

One or even a few good deeds won't cancel out your title as villain.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 07:40 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
Paralyzed Barabara, tortured Gordon, killed Jason Todd, killed Sarah (Gordon's wife). Had Nightwing kill him for practically nothing only to be brought back , had Superman almost killing him by telling him that the only way to save Lois is to do so. Even Batman snapped and was about to kill him in Hush when it seemed like he killed Tommy Elliot.


See, it's just the killing joke which brings him any true justice.

Like I said earlier, Jason Todd was revived and CHOSE to die. He chose to cover up his mother and take the majority of the explosion. And I dare say that Batman's actions in Hush was NOT something we should give the Joker credit for, but rather [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Tommy himself seeing as he was the one who orchestraed the entire event.

Emperor Joker was not impressive considering he was practically GIVEN the power by Mxy. So in the end, his major accomplishments come down to taking care of Gordon's family and giving Batman hell.

The only thing Joker has going for him, in my opinion, seems to be personality and style. Everyone from 20 and down on IGN's list seem to have him beaten. Consider what Bullseye has done to Daredevil compared to Joker. Bullseye killed Elektra AND Karen Page. He has beaten Daredevil several times and had him ready to kill himself [SPOILER - highlight to read]: partial credit to Mysterio there, though he did not order any killing.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 08:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Juggernaut has done good from time to time but his evil deeds completely outweigh his good ones so is he an opponent despite his own brother saying that he is beyond redemption?

One or even a few good deeds won't cancel out your title as villain.


To me, villainy implies evil.

Not thug-for-hire.

-AC


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:11 PM
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Lek Kuen
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To me, villainy implies evil.

Not thug-for-hire.

-AC

almost all villians have done some good at some point


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:13 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
To me, villainy implies evil.

Not thug-for-hire.

-AC


Cain is no thug for hire. He does work for money but he is still completely evil. Thugs don't go around slaughtering villages of men women and children because they refused to worship Cyttorak. If he was simply a mercenary then Madame Web would be dead.


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Old Post Jun 29th, 2009 09:19 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It's odd how people get so incredibly riled up about the Joker. By all rights Red Skull or Lex are much better villains. What was Trick's arguments again? That Joker enjoyed what he was doing? That's a proper laugh, that's what that is. The only thing he's accomplished so far is what, crippling Batgirl and temporarily leading to Jason Todd choosing to take his own life in order to save his mother only to return a couple of years later??

Maybe if he had actually managed to get Batman to take a life, instead of just being some guy who appears practically -every- time Batman has a scuffle with someone. I'm reading Invincible now, and Angstrom Levy and Conquest have impressed me more so far.

Red Skull managed to take care of Captain America, I bet he enjoyed that much more than the Joker enjoys a batkick every week :/

The Living Island and D'Ken also deserve mention. So does Corinthian smile
thumb up


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:23 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Cain is no thug for hire. He does work for money but he is still completely evil. Thugs don't go around slaughtering villages of men women and children because they refused to worship Cyttorak. If he was simply a mercenary then Madame Web would be dead.


That's still essentially him acting in someone's stead, though.

Sinister is way more of a villain in the truest sense, he is the kind that will break you into a million pieces without touching you. He's a psychological villain, the kind that would have a quickened heartbeat at the sight of someone enduring the worst emotional pain possible.

Ask Summers.

-AC


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:42 AM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
See, it's just the killing joke which brings him any true justice.

Like I said earlier, Jason Todd was revived and CHOSE to die. He chose to cover up his mother and take the majority of the explosion. And I dare say that Batman's actions in Hush was NOT something we should give the Joker credit for, but rather [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Tommy himself seeing as he was the one who orchestraed the entire event.

Emperor Joker was not impressive considering he was practically GIVEN the power by Mxy. So in the end, his major accomplishments come down to taking care of Gordon's family and giving Batman hell.

The only thing Joker has going for him, in my opinion, seems to be personality and style. Everyone from 20 and down on IGN's list seem to have him beaten. Consider what Bullseye has done to Daredevil compared to Joker. Bullseye killed Elektra AND Karen Page. He has beaten Daredevil several times and had him ready to kill himself [SPOILER - highlight to read]: partial credit to Mysterio there, though he did not order any killing.


In the killing Joker he only paralyzed Barabara and tortured Gordon so it's not only the killing Joker that makes him justice. Like I said, read Detective Comics 826 where he takes Tim Drake for a ride or Batman 663 where he is explored more in depth. These 3 are possibly my favorite Joker stories. Or, like I already mentioned, him killing Sarrah, Gordon's wife. Or check Action Comics 719.

Most characters in comics have been revived, but that doesn't take from the impact Joker or Bullseye (since Elektra has been revived too) had over the Batman and Daredevil respectivly. Or now we're going to say Zoom sucks because Linda and the kids made it out alive eventually (and many more examples.). Jason didn't choose to die, he was beaten to near-death with a crowbar and then left to die, along with his mother. As you might notice, even if he didn't spend time trying to save his mother, the door was still locked so there was no way out. Hush was just to illustrate a point on how Batman almost snapped and killed the Joker while at the same time remembering what he did to Barbara and to Gordon, saying that this is the last straw.

As I said, the Emperor Joker or the Last Laugh storylines aren't exactly my favorite storylines involving the Joker, but that doesn't change the fact that in both stories (Emperor Joker especially) he owned close to everybody. In fact, during the EJ storyline he tortured Batman so badly, that Superman had to take his memories away with the help of the Spectre. And he obtained this power by tricking Mxy to give it all, despite the fact that the latter only wanted to give him a small fraction.

Honestly though,not only do you seem not to like the character very much but also judge him by 'surface' stuff (he did this, he did that, look this guy did more). And killing two of Daredevil's love interests doesn't even compare to what Joker did.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 09:19 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
In the killing Joker he only paralyzed Barabara and tortured Gordon so it's not only the killing Joker that makes him justice. Like I said, read Detective Comics 826 where he takes Tim Drake for a ride or Batman 663 where he is explored more in depth. These 3 are possibly my favorite Joker stories. Or, like I already mentioned, him killing Sarrah, Gordon's wife. Or check Action Comics 719.

Most characters in comics have been revived, but that doesn't take from the impact Joker or Bullseye (since Elektra has been revived too) had over the Batman and Daredevil respectivly. Or now we're going to say Zoom sucks because Linda and the kids made it out alive eventually (and many more examples.). Jason didn't choose to die, he was beaten to near-death with a crowbar and then left to die, along with his mother. As you might notice, even if he didn't spend time trying to save his mother, the door was still locked so there was no way out. Hush was just to illustrate a point on how Batman almost snapped and killed the Joker while at the same time remembering what he did to Barbara and to Gordon, saying that this is the last straw.

As I said, the Emperor Joker or the Last Laugh storylines aren't exactly my favorite storylines involving the Joker, but that doesn't change the fact that in both stories (Emperor Joker especially) he owned close to everybody. In fact, during the EJ storyline he tortured Batman so badly, that Superman had to take his memories away with the help of the Spectre. And he obtained this power by tricking Mxy to give it all, despite the fact that the latter only wanted to give him a small fraction.

Honestly though,not only do you seem not to like the character very much but also judge him by 'surface' stuff (he did this, he did that, look this guy did more). And killing two of Daredevil's love interests doesn't even compare to what Joker did.


I will check out the parts involving him in detective comics and batman then. But it would have to be something relatively big if it's going to somehow earn him the first spot as the greatest comic book villain.

You're right about characters being revived. I realized that it was completely hypocritical the second I wrote it. Characters are brought back non-stop, the Joker (and everyone else) deserves full credit for any murders they've committed. Still Jason Todd's death feels off. It was decided by a freaking poll for crying out loud, and a death in the family certainly went downhill after that. Suddenly the Joker became an ambassador, it just felt off.

Emperor joker wasn't under his own power. It's like bringing up Marvel: The End and claiming that it was impressive of Thanos to kill everybody. Maybe if someone of that torture had come without the über godly powers. Frankly Knightfall impressed me much more than Emperor Joker, much more. And It's the same with Hush, the Joker did not play a proper part in this. This is borderline hypocrisy again, since I brought up Bullseye. I simply feel that Bullseye's part in Guardian Devil was much greater than the Joker's part in Hush.

Tricking Mxy feels like stupid writing. It feels just like the time when Doom absorbed the Beyonder's energy and vice versa. Should not nigh-omnipotent characters have proper control over their powers? Regardless, it was impressive of him to steal the power. The things he did with it however, just not great. If you have Mxy's power, drivnig someone insane should be a cakewalk.

I like the Joker, I just think it's ridiculous for people to actually COMPLAIN about his second place. Lex seems to be vastly superior in practically every aspect. Consdering what Lex represents, what he has done and his characterization, I dare say Lex has Joker beat in every area. It also seems relevant to bring up the power of the man that Lex is facing. His protagonist is Superman for crying out loud, it's the big leagues. Inb4oldbatkickjokes.

Affecting the DC universe on a grand scale is also something which is important here. Lex became present, he helped form the society of super villains and controlled them nonetheless. This category might be more suited for the Doomsdays and Anti-Monitors, but Lex still helped make lasting changes.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:29 PM
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Neo Darkhalen
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Joker should have been number 1 imo.

I know it's predictable to say that but ehh I really don't think there is any villain in the same league as the Joker.

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Joker should have been number 1 imo.

I know it's predictable to say that but ehh I really don't think there is any villain in the same league as the Joker.


What league is the Joker supposedly in? What is it he does that is supposedly so impressive that Lex, or Loki or Doom or Ra's can't do?


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:39 PM
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