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IGN - Top 100 villains
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Neo Darkhalen
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
What league is the Joker supposedly in? What is it he does that is supposedly so impressive that Lex, or Loki or Doom or Ra's can't do?


He's the perfect opposite to Batman, and he has different motivations to just doing things for the sake of doing them, all the way down to proving a point.

Is there any real point in describing it though, we all know what the joker stands for.

It's not what you can do, it's how you go about things or how you challange the heroes beliefs or ideals, for me Joker has a very wide personality that can be interprited so many different ways it keeps him constantly fresh.

As for Lex I dunno I'm suspicious of anyone who's whole motivation for being a villain is because you lost your hair in an accident Superman saved you from.

Last edited by Neo Darkhalen on Jun 30th, 2009 at 12:46 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:40 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
He's the perfect opposite to Batman, and he has different motivations to just doing things for the sake of doing them, all the way down to proving a point.

Is there any real point in discribing it though, we all know what the joker stands for.


Yeah, insanity. Lex is a perfect opposite of Superman and Loki is a perfect opposite of Thor.

Lex exists in every single human being. He is the part that makes us want to hate those who are different, shun them, alienate others. That part will always exist, Lex represents something in humanity that can never die.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:45 PM
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Neo Darkhalen
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Yeah, insanity. Lex is a perfect opposite of Superman and Loki is a perfect opposite of Thor.

Lex exists in every single human being. He is the part that makes us want to hate those who are different, shun them, alienate others. That part will always exist, Lex represents something in humanity that can never die.


Yeah Lex his hatred for losing his hair is something we can all really relate to.

As for the Joker it's not really insanity for the him as so much making a point, that he is not different from society he's just different and why should he be treated differently for his views he is a man who's been pushed to far and he wants to prove anyone can be him, perhaps so he can better connect with the world, but then like I said the Joker has tried to make many different points over countless stories and that was one example.

As for Lex well I can't really say much about him, he seems bland and I don't read Superman so I can't give any sort of opinion or notion on that regard.

I have no real idea where I was going with any of this btw, it's rather hot here right now and so I don't really have the energy to make any sort of points, I just wanted to quickly throw in my views that I belive the Joker to be the No. 1 villain.

Last edited by Neo Darkhalen on Jun 30th, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 12:50 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
See, it's just the killing joke which brings him any true justice.

Like I said earlier, Jason Todd was revived and CHOSE to die. He chose to cover up his mother and take the majority of the explosion. And I dare say that Batman's actions in Hush was NOT something we should give the Joker credit for, but rather [SPOILER - highlight to read]: Tommy himself seeing as he was the one who orchestraed the entire event.

Emperor Joker was not impressive considering he was practically GIVEN the power by Mxy. So in the end, his major accomplishments come down to taking care of Gordon's family and giving Batman hell.

The only thing Joker has going for him, in my opinion, seems to be personality and style. Everyone from 20 and down on IGN's list seem to have him beaten. Consider what Bullseye has done to Daredevil compared to Joker. Bullseye killed Elektra AND Karen Page. He has beaten Daredevil several times and had him ready to kill himself [SPOILER - highlight to read]: partial credit to Mysterio there, though he did not order any killing.
Alexander Luthor? Joker ended the Crisis. Bullseye done anything significant?

I believe he offed several characters in Salvation Run.

Joker has had Batman beaten several times too.

Moments like when he started cutting swathe through Gotham in No Man's Land, making that one group kill all their own guys, and then eventually kidnapping all the babies, then killing Sarah Gordon, is a good example of how terrifying Joker is.

He traded his soul to the devil for a box of cuban cigars and started passing them out.

Bullseye really doesn't stand up to Joker.

When bad guys really want to scare the hell out of each-other, they tell Joker stories. wink


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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 30th, 2009 at 01:13 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:09 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Neo Darkhalen
Yeah Lex his hatred for losing his hair is something we can all really relate to.

As for the Joker it's not really insanity for the him as so much making a point, that he is not different from society he's just different and why should he be treated differently for his views he is a man who's been pushed to far and he wants to prove anyone can be him, perhaps so he can better connect with the world, but then like I said the Joker has tried to make many different points over countless stories and that was one example.

As for Lex well I can't really say much about him, he seems bland and I don't read Superman so I can't give any sort of opinion or notion on that regard.

I have no real idea where I was going with any of this btw, it's rather hot here right now and so I don't really have the energy to make any sort of points, I just wanted to quickly throw in my views that I belive the Joker to be the No. 1 villain.
Read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, you'll love it. smile


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:10 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
Alexander Luthor? Joker ended the Crisis. Bullseye done anything significant?

I believe he offed several characters in Salvation Run.

Joker has had Batman beaten several times too.

Moments like when he started cutting swathe through Gotham in No Man's Land, making that one group kill all their own guys, and then eventually kidnapping all the babies, then killing Sarah Gordon, is a good example of how terrifying Joker is.


- Joker did not end anything. He and Lex found Alexander Luthor weakened. It was as much Lex' vengenace as it was the Joker's. You can't regonize a gift when you see it apparently.

- He killed Psimon or what's his name, and fought some guys I guess...

- Good. I was wrong if I claimed that Joker did not have any legit victories against Batman.

- I will read No Man's Land before I further comment on it. But Bullseye has a much better track record when it comes to killing people. He killed a church full of nuns.


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Last edited by Kris Blaze on Jun 30th, 2009 at 01:35 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:25 PM
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Philosophía
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What have you read involving the Joker ?

Honestly.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:37 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
What have you read involving the Joker ?

Honestly.




What have you read involving Magneto?

Honestly.

Wow, works both ways.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:40 PM
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Philosophía
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze


What have you read involving Magneto?

Honestly.

Wow, works both ways.


You misunderstood me, I didn't mean for that to sound like an insult. I asked simply because you might have missed his best stories (like the No Man Land finale) and thus the whole 'Joker is the best' hype might have affected how you view the character negativly, thus you current view on him.

And I've read every story involving Magneto.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:47 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
You misunderstood me, I didn't mean for that to sound like an insult. I asked simply because you might have missed his best stories (like the No Man Land finale) and thus the whole 'Joker is the best' hype might have affected how you view the character negativly, thus you current view on him.

And I've read every story involving Magneto.


I've read every story we've discussed here, except Batman 633, which I'm going to read now. The detective comics one was great, but it's not really great "feat-wise" it's just another great personality potrayl. Which is why I think he's a great villain, but it's not sufficient to warrant a 1st place in comicdom.

Shit, I'll have to get 663, 633 involved Black Mask. Actually, I'll read Morrison's fanfic later on


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Last edited by Kris Blaze on Jun 30th, 2009 at 01:56 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:48 PM
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Philosophía
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So you admit he is great character-wise but what you need is to see him do what.. something that affects the Bat-family in big ways ? Like I said, he paralyzed Barbara (Batgirl and Gordon's daughter), killed Jason by beating him with a crowbar and the blowing him up (Batman's protege, Robin), killed Gordon's wife and tormented him using pictures of his shot, naked daughter. Nightwing killed him from practically nothing, Superman almost killed him for nothing (he was willing to sacrifice his life just to ruin Superman's). Or you want something on a larger scale like he did in Joker: The Last Laugh ? Or something on pretty much, the biggest scale, like he did in Emperor Joker ? Because at this point, it seems you just hate him for the sake of it.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:56 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- Joker did not end anything. He and Lex found Alexander Luthor weakened. It was as much Lex' vengenace as it was the Joker's. You can't regonize a gift when you see it apparently.

- He killed Psimon or what's his name, and fought some guys I guess...

- Good. I was wrong if I claimed that Joker did not have any legit victories against Batman.

- I will read No Man's Land before I further comment on it. But Bullseye has a much better track record when it comes to killing people. He killed a church full of nuns.
I guess Joker wasn't the one who shot him with acid, melted his face, got him with the joy buzzer, then shot him in the head, then. That was all Lex.

Joker also beat Lex, and pushed the gorillas over the cliff, and held the entire establishment of villains in fear in Salvation run.


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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 30th, 2009 at 02:04 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 01:58 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía

And I've read every story involving Magneto.
I guess he forgot that your original forum name before this was Erik Lensherr


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:01 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
So you admit he is great character-wise but what you need is to see him do what.. something that affects the Bat-family in big ways ? Like I said, he paralyzed Barbara (Batgirl and Gordon's daughter), killed Jason by beating him with a crowbar and the blowing him up (Batman's protege, Robin), killed Gordon's wife and tormented him using pictures of his shot, naked daughter. Nightwing killed him from practically nothing, Superman almost killed him for nothing (he was willing to sacrifice his life just to ruin Superman's). Or you want something on a larger scale like he did in Joker: The Last Laugh ? Or something on pretty much, the biggest scale, like he did in Emperor Joker ? Because at this point, it seems you just hate him for the sake of it.
A lot of Joker stuff happens off panel too, they often suggest that he kills anywhere from dozens, to literally hundreds in a random night out.

But yeah, in last laugh, he was torching entire countries, and had an army of people jokerized, and made Joker rain across the globe, lol.


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I am God's mighty fist. I am God's strength made manifest.

Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:03 PM
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Kris Blaze
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Philosophía
So you admit he is great character-wise but what you need is to see him do what.. something that affects the Bat-family in big ways ? Like I said, he paralyzed Barbara (Batgirl and Gordon's daughter), killed Jason by beating him with a crowbar and the blowing him up (Batman's protege, Robin), killed Gordon's wife and tormented him using pictures of his shot, naked daughter. Nightwing killed him from practically nothing, Superman almost killed him for nothing (he was willing to sacrifice his life just to ruin Superman's). Or you want something on a larger scale like he did in Joker: The Last Laugh ? Or something on pretty much, the biggest scale, like he did in Emperor Joker ? Because at this point, it seems you just hate him for the sake of it.


The Emperor Joker stuff didn't happen under his own power. Tricking an idiot into somehow mystically giving you MORE power than he wanted to, which should by all rigths be impossible. Those weren't exactly lasting changes either. He's harrassing Gordon, a ****ing police officer. What is so great about this? There are people in real life who can pull off this shit.

In fact, I was more impressed by Green Goblin's actions. His "A death in the family" portrayed Norman's insanity and the effect he had on Peter to a greater degree than the Joker. And hey, he killed Peter's girlfriend AND best friend. Not to mention the things he did to Gwen Stacy BEFORE any of these murderous events took place.

And he has only ALMOST driven them to murder. I realize that this might be more due to the limitation placed upon the writers. In the end, the death of Jason Todd only made Batman MORE firm in his belief not to kill anyone. "It would be too easy" practically revealed a much greater and deeper understanding that he did not possess before Jason died. Then again, this doesn't weigh against the Joker. Since he furthered character development.

In then end, I don't see what's impressive about almost convincing people to kill someone. Doomsday pulled this off in a single storyline. Lasting effect, Superman took a life, he offed a major character and beat a team of super-heros.

That bias seems to be messing up your perception too now. Supposedly I HATE the joker because I do not grant him top spot as a super villain? What the FUKC man? How can you even say that? You're so elitist that simply because I prefer a different character I hate the Joker? A thousand pardons for not buying into half-assed accomplishments and assistance from nigh-omnipotent characters.'

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
I guess Joker wasn't the one who shot him with acid, melted his face, got him with the joy buzzer, then shot him in the head, then. That was all Lex.

Joker also beat Lex, and pushed the gorillas over the cliff, and held the entire establishment of villains in fear in Salvation run.


Yeah, wow, you got me there. It's not like Lex couldn't have killed Alex. I mean, he was standing there watching and talking. I guess it would've been impossible for him to kill Alex, right? Because if the Joker had not pulled the trigger there, Alex would DEFINITELY have lived and made his revenge, right? RIGHT?

Oh and yes, he pushed Gorilla Grodd. Who returned an issue later. Some impressive shit right there.

Yeah, he was able to fish out a victory against Lex. Which is complete and utter bullshit. Lex is far more skilled.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
I guess he forgot that your original forum name before this was Erik Lensherr


Shut the **** up, Donnie, you're out of your element.


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I give you the only thing an Orange Lantern gives....Demands

Last edited by Kris Blaze on Jun 30th, 2009 at 02:11 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:07 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze

Yeah, wow, you got me there. It's not like Lex couldn't have killed Alex. I mean, he was standing there watching and talking. I guess it would've been impossible for him to kill Alex, right? Because if the Joker had not pulled the trigger there, Alex would DEFINITELY have lived and made his revenge, right? RIGHT?

Oh and yes, he pushed Gorilla Grodd. Who returned an issue later. Some impressive shit right there.

Yeah, he was able to fish out a victory against Lex. Which is complete and utter bullshit. Lex is far more skilled.



Shut the **** up, Donnie, you're out of your element.
It's a matter of WHO did it, not who COULD have. Get it?
You acted like Joker hasn't done anything, when it gets shown to you, you turn childish.

Besides Lex- Joker's also beaten Cassandra Cain in hand to hand combat, Barbara too, Dick too. Lex is more skilled? lol.

I'm never out of my element when we're discussing DC characters, especially when you're clearly the one out on a limb and getting defensive.

Also, you're misquoting.
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element."
wink


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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 30th, 2009 at 02:18 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:16 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
It's a matter of WHO did it, not who COULD have. Get it?

Joker's also beaten Cassandra Cain in hand to hand combat, Barbara too, Dick too. Lex is more skilled? lol.

I'm never out of my element when we're discussing DC characters, especially when you're clearly the one out on a limb and getting defensive.

Also, you're misquoting. wink
"Forget it Donny, you're out of your element."


You're trying to claim that the Joker ended infinite crisis.... The stupidity of such a claim will come back to you. There's a reason why we don't just credit the Human Flame or don't just credit Dr.Light with killing the Martian Manhunter.

Allow me to reprhase then. "Killing Alexander Luthor is not impressive. It is less impressive than when Mannheim killed Mirage. It is less impressive than when Joker ran over people with his car. It is not impressive in the least" Clear enough?

You see the idiocy? He can't beat Cassandra Cain in hand to hand. She can read body language, she can not be beaten by regular humans. Doesn't matter how much bias clouds your mind, because that is not possible. Joker beating Nigthwing is possible, Joker took him on and hit him at least. Nightwing does not have superhuman abilities, he does not predict what his opponent does in combat. It IS POSSIBLE. Every time Cassandra loses against a regular human being however, it is nothing short of PIS.

How am I out of my element? I am saying WHY a character does not impress me. Anybody but me is out of their element here Steinberg. I don't give a flying **** how cool you think the Joker is. Or how impressed you are when he beats up one of Batman's joke of a sidekick, IT IS NOT ENOUGH. This does not make him the greatest villain in the world. We're also measuring him up against EVERY OTHER VILLAIN IN COMIC BOOK HISTORY.

Shut the **** up sounds better.


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I give you the only thing an Orange Lantern gives....Demands

Last edited by Kris Blaze on Jun 30th, 2009 at 02:34 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:23 PM
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Juntai
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You're trying to claim that the Joker ended infinite crisis.... The stupidity of such a claim will come back to you. There's a reason why we don't just credit the Human Flame or don't just credit Dr.Light with killing the Martian Manhunter.

Allow me to reprhase then. "Killing Alexander Luthor is not impressive. It is less impressive than when Mannheim killed Mirage. It is less impressive than when Joker ran over people with his car. It is not impressive in the least" Clear enough?

You see the idiocy? He can't beat Cassandra Cain in hand to hand. She can read body language, she can not be beaten by regular humans. Doesn't matter how much bias clouds your mind, because that is not possible. Joker beating Nigthwing is possible, Joker took him on and hit him at least. Nightwing does not have superhuman abilities, he does not predict what his opponent does in combat. It IS POSSIBLE. Every time Cassandra loses against a regular human being however, it is nothing short of PIS.

How am I out of my element? I am saying WHY a character does not impress me. Anybody but me is out of their element here Steinberg. I don't give a flying **** how cool you think the Joker is. Or how impressed you are when he beats up one of Batman's joke of a sidekick, IT IS NOT ENOUGH. This does not make him the greatest villain in the world. We're also measuring him up against EVERY OTHER VILLAIN IN COMIC BOOK HISTORY.

Shut the **** up sounds better.
I never said you were out of your element, I was correcting your quote. Keep getting defensive though, it's funny.

I also don't recall saying I felt Joker was the best anywhere in here, keep assuming though.

Cassandra can't read Joker, his body language doesn't make sense. wink
I thought you've read all these arcs we're discussing here?

And, I just mentioned the Alexander thing, in tallying up some things Joker has done, that have a lasting impact. If you think hitting
[random civilian A] in his car driving Robin around, is more impressive than killing Alexander Luthor in that regard, or that killing a church of nuns is more impressive than Joker putting Gotham on Lock in several stories, or nearly taking down Earth with him in last laugh, then I don't know what to say to you.


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Last edited by Juntai on Jun 30th, 2009 at 02:38 PM

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:35 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Juntai
I never said you were out of your element, I was correcting your quote. Keep getting defensive though, it's funny.

I also don't recall saying I felt Joker was the best anywhere in here, keep assuming though, it goes good with the childish and defensive act.

Cassandra can't read Joker, his body language doesn't make sense. wink
I thought you've read all these arcs we're discussing here?

And, I just mentioned the Alexander thing, in tallying up some things Joker has done, that have a lasting impact. If you think hitting
[random civilian A] in his car driving Robin around, is more impressive than killing Alexander Luthor in that regard, then I don't know what to say to you.


I'm not going to bother.

But for the record, when I said that I had read every arc involving the Joker. It was in response to Philosophia and the ones he had mentioned. If I missed one, big ****ing deal.

Here's a challenge for your stupid ass.

Try comparing Joker's personality and accomplishments to Lucifer's.


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Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:38 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I'm not going to bother.

But for the record, when I said that I had read every arc involving the Joker. It was in response to Philosophia and the ones he had mentioned. If I missed one, big ****ing deal.

Here's a challenge for your stupid ass.

Try comparing Joker's personality and accomplishments to Lucifer's.
Lucifer, from Vertigo?
Good read, great character, I have all the individual issues bagged and boarded. smile

But as I said, I never claimed Joker was the best here, so I don't know what you're getting at.


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Sig by: Skeets, S.S, thesilverspider, Sir SKEETS Alot

Old Post Jun 30th, 2009 02:40 PM
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