As I have said thoughtout this entire argument AG, That is what you consider to be the most evil of the two.
Really where did the Developers say that they consider a Domination Overlord to be less Evil then a Destruction Overlord? I would very much like to see that because then we can drop this.
You asked me if I connected Red ingame with Love I answered no to that question and asked you if you connected Blue with something Good in Overlord 2? Again that is your conclusion based on what you associate with blue and that you automatically assume that Very Evil is Destruction and Evil is Domination, entirely disregarding that for another player Destruction can be the Evil and Domination the very Evil, and hence back to the individual look on the term Evil.
Yet you have used alot of time on interpret how Red makes Destruction the most evil of the two. No you have decided on behalf of the players that Destruction is the most Evil, because that is what you think is the most evil.
No it doesn't it increase when you make certain choices, your overall red rating doesn't increase when you for instance kill Civilians in the capital. And why the Hell should a Domination Overlord choose to have a Malious Laughter, killing isn't in his interest but complete and utter submission is.
They dont but they make it blue, rather than red, and for killings which gives you red alignement you get an evil malicious laugh. What they said is one is more evil than the other, one of the choices is more evil than the other.
I think that blue is associated with a better element than red, thus why when you kill you get a malicious laugh and red rating.
Red is a more negative colour than blue, thats a fact in this kind of game where all the art suggests that red, dark colours, burning fire and fury are more negative than bright blue.
The rating increases/decreases based on the major decisions, if you choose to enslave the governer instead of kill, you get blue rating, if you kill him, people scream and an evil laughter arises, this may not happen when you enslave, I am going to try it now.
Thats the thing, its not the overlord that laughs, its a display/conclusion to your actions. A cruel and malicious laugh along with red symbolising killing makes it obvious that this is considered by the game to be a worse act.
So you basically only got your own analyse of that the Developers sees, because of the color, Destruction as more evil the domination, sorry BT but that isn't enough that is again your conclusion. Ofcause you get laughter you are a mindless slayer that takes pleasure in killing why wouldn't you laugh? Yes they did say that and as I have said throughout the entire discussion, we as the players choose which one is the most evil of the two.
Cool, that is your decision, I have just brought up the facts that illustrates that Red isn't per say a more violent color then Blue.
In the game ore in the real world? Because you are correct that Red is used ingame more then Blue, but then again to suggest that because fires are Red and is used more in the netherworld that makes Red a more evil alignment is a strange line of thinking from my point of view.
It doesn't as far as I know, which gives Domination it's own charm (see below).
Not when you take into consideration of the character that each Overlord must then possesses, the Destruction will ofcause laugh because he enjoys killing, while the domination will just look at the Slave and think "Another Thrall bound to a lifetime of service and cruelty" no need to laugh because it isn't in his character.
So you think the fact that one has an evil laugh and is the colour of death, violence that is the key art direction for what is an evil game has no baring on which is more evil?.....that does not make sense
You brought up the fact that in other cultures red/blue can mean diffrent things but thats irrelvent considering the culture who made the game considering the rest of the art are more likely to be inclined to see blue as less of an evil than red.
Red is always a more brutal/evil colour than blue in all alignement games, in Fable, in this game, in Dungeon keeper all the more demonic forces use red, its a very common colour used to represent evil.
But as I said, neither overlord laughs, an evil laugh is simply in the background when you accomplish the goal, the Overlord does not necesserily do it, it seems like a gameplay mechanic.
Dead wasn't last time I checked Red, normally dead's associated with Black. Violence in Overlord II is just a aspect of the game that the Overlord uses to accomplish his goal, and depending on the PLAYER the Overlord can either continue with his ruthless killing ore Dominate the entire world, and as previously mentioned the Developers gives you the choice between Domination and Destruction their isn't a single incident that directly points out that the Developers think that Destruction > Domination like you have tried to argue.
So you wouldn't say that a large majority of the western world would associate Red with the feeling Love and Christmas? Try asking you neighbours and hear what they associate with Red, I can assure you that here (I did a test) I got one that Madness destruction Mars (the warrior God) did come but it was far down on the list.
So now we are going to use other games to probably gauge what the developers of Overlord II thinks is the most Evil??? I guess that makes the British in the 100 year war the most evil because they had red armor while the french had blue...
So it doesn't come when you kill a innocent civilian, then I don't at all see the point you where trying to make with it.
Art direction and colours used implicate that killing is determined more evil.
lol ill actually ask some people out of interest but I doubt when the people made the game they attributed love to the colour red, wheras they could have seen blue as more positive.
Thats illogical and does not make any sense anyway..bad analogy, other games can influence Overlord, as I said, if other games use red as a symbol for evil then its likely Overlord did as well.
its a gameplay mechanic, theres only so many areas where you alignement is tested, the point is if one has typically evil happenings with it (an evil laugh) and the other does not ,then its likely the one left without so many cruel symbols are the less evil.
Based on your analyses, not on the developers own words. Lets get that entirely straight.
I doubt as I have mentioned before that they picked any color by accident I have already mentioned what Red and Blue means when you look back in history and I have also mentioned how both Colors fit perfectly with each alignment given what you use to accomplish your goal, but your analogy that Red is more associated with bad things then Blue in western culture is from my point of view plain wrong, especially seeing what red have been connected with over the recent years.
I prefere to apply something that happens in the real world as scenario because some games I have played you might not have but I know all can relative easy find the facts concerning the 100 years war. Well the fact that they applied it to the Evil is indebatable because as mentioned there is in the game only evil. I just find it wrong to use other games as proof to that the Developers in Overlord II found Destruction more Evil.
I have already stated why it's entirely logical that the laugh would appear in some scenarios and not in others (see the Character part) did you completely skip that?
"shrug" yes but then again, based ony my analysis the netherworld looks more evil to me, the overlord looks evil and so do the imps. And red looks more evil than blue.
Back in history is nothing to do with it, the fact red stands for a huge list of demonic influences generaly is not contradicted at all just because red was used by british forces.....
other games are the best to implicate what may have influenced the art directors to choose red and blue, and I listed other games with alignment systems that are symbolised by blue being good, red being evil.
No, you simply ignored the fact its not the Overlord making the laugh, its a background noise that happens. You would have a point if it was the Overlord laughing.
Ofcause the netherworld is evil and the Overlord along with it, if you are speaking about a change in the Netherworld as a result of being Destruction I must admit that I haven't noticed it. Reds are fiery little devils that takes delight in roasting people, while the blues are the most magical ones the strangest of the imps, I personally prefere the Brown and Greens.
Once red stood for those things but as mentioned I think you will find that alot of people no longer associate Red with something bad just like they doesn't associate Blue with something bad. You were trying to make the case that the color Red = Evil while Blue = Blue, I brought up a scenario that showed that things wasn't as clear cut as you wished them to be.
And you are trying to use them in a system where there by the developers own words is no Good? There is basically only Evil Ore Really Evil and again as shown earlier the Developers lets us as Players decide what we think is most Evil, they based the entire game upon it remember?
Not quite, it could just as well be Gnall (which is psycopatic) that laughed based on the ending laugh of the game and compare it with when you kill the Governers. And why by the way isn't it the Overlord that is Laughning?
Then again that can be deceptive due to the fact the imps are typically humourous and have been known to show affection so their not necesserily evil, yet their lairs and their overall appearance would have you think that wouldnt it.....kinda like...I dunno...dark red and a malicious laugh.
You brought up an irrelvent scenario, I doubt either side of the 100 year war chose colours to represent whether they were good or evil....
The game is never based on what the players think is most evil or really evil.....where does it say that? it simply says the game is based on making a choice of whether or not you want to dominate or kill, you dont necesserily have to pick the most evil option.
because the Overlord never moves or laughs in any situation, nor does it speak.
Brown politic is smash first jump up and down on carcass later. The minions are atleast as twisted in their heads as the Overlord is, they after all raised him to be the Evil Overlord.
You tried to take the color red and only associate it with Evil while looking at blue only in a good context. Despite the numerous evidence that such a view is hardly fair. Hence I brought up a example that clearly showed that such a view isn't in anyway usable.
The game is based on two alignments that is, no matter how you look at them from a neutral standpoint, evil, the developers have stated that the first game gave you a choice between Good and Evil, here it's just a choice between Destruction and Domination, hence we are basing the game we play on what we think is the most evil of the two (ore atleast I do). If you doesn't pick what you find to be the most evil of the two then you are imho not playing the game in it's spirit and should consider looking for a either good ore evil aligned game.
Yet the laugh is heard in the helmet just like the numerous voices that overtime run through it, to think that's either the sociopathic Overlords thoughts ore Gnall laughning isn't farfetch imo.
In a game where there are so many races and spiecies who are you to say whom is twisted in the head? another opinion....another decision you make for yourself.
It was not useful example at all, what colours soldiers wear is nothing to do with alignment to good or evil.
Thats just your opinion, the games purpose is to according to you give the players the choice between an evil or more evil option. ofcourse I disagree, I dont think its really important ,its just the fact you have a choice that is.
But it can also be a background gameplay noise to implicate a more cruel deicsion on your part.
So you don't think that the Brown policy that I mentioned in my post above isn't a symbol of a twisted mindset, you don't think that the Brown minions which raised the Overlord to be evil is twisted with Evil?
Thank you, just like the colors in the game has nothing to do with whether ore not you are doing some Less evil then the counterpart.
I have made it clear from the beginning that I was stating my opinion on the matter at hand nothing have changed about that, and neither have the fact that the quote you presented earlier supports my point.
Yes it can, I just finds it unlikely based on the quote above, I haven't listened closely in domination because I assumed that both would get the laugh, but will go back and check if the Laugh is there.
i thot you just stated my analogies are not good for conclusive evidence? and I think their misunderstood creatures, their born into this existence themselves, this is all they know ,calling them evil just because this is their culture is wrong imo.
But this is where its diffrent because the colours in the game do actually symbolise either side, one of which is considered less evil than the other.
I will return also when I have run through on dominion to see if theres a laugh.
I stated that your analogy that tried to make the Developers find Destruction to be the most evil of the two alignments imo is wrong, I believe I have said that from the very beginning. Then that is your opinion, I disagree these beings are born evil, it is as much in their nature as Gnall mentions that Evil is in the Blood of the Overlords son.
For the absolute last time, Yes one of them is considered less evil then the other, but as shown and debated etc etc imo it's up to us as players to decide to ourselves which one of Destruction ore Domination that is the most Evil.
I thought what was "evil" and "very evil" was set in stone? Just like in the first game where you could cultivate and enslave those you conquered or destroy them.
Enslaving people like in Spree (allowing them to cultivate their food) was less evil than taking their food stores and destroying much of their homes and lives.
I also don't believe their was an option for being "good" in the first game. Considering you did certain things, regardless of alignment that were hardly good e.g. making their young maidens your personal slaves at the tower etc.
I think the options were either neutral/amoral or evil.
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Jul 20th, 2009 01:58 PM
