Gender: Male Location: USA, Oklahoma. Pewpy balls.
Re: Re: Re: Re: White men win a "discrimination" case.
I was not referring to specific individuals, but humans as a whole. Meaning, we are all the same species and regardless of race. Sure, there is data that indicates the IQ is less among those of African decent...but isn't that more of a problem of education than actual potential? IQ isn't the only measure of intelligence, as you know.
My example is not referring to individuals, but to metaphors for the entire people.
I am not talking about two imaginary boys, William and Scott. I'm referring to them as examples.
If that scenario were done an infinite number of times (assuming we had an infinite number of "western" children to use and "African" children to use), the poles should cancel each other out, and we are left with the middle, which is really what I'm referring to in my example. They should do just as well. This is my point of "human potential" and it being just a case of nurture.
I am aware of this, but, again, I'm not referring to individual cases or a specific outcome. I'm referring to an average.
Here, let me put it a different way: Are black people dumber, no matter what?
The only problem I have with this: The vast majority know, maybe not as tangibly as other socio-economic demographics, but they all know how important an education is. Every walk of life talks about it being important...but I understand that not all truly grasp how important it really is.
That's a function of culture/sub-culture, rather than less human potential, right?
I believe the socio-economic factors which a person grows up in effect their intelligence far more than their race. Though I am sure genetics must play a part somewhere I doubt that there is a notable genetic difference between blacks and whites when it comes to this issue.
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Oh come on...we both know you don't think "boring"...you think "blood-boilingly offensive" and lament the loss of the former glory and torture power of the Holy See.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: White men win a "discrimination" case.
even if there were a racial difference, this wouldn't be the case. There could be black kids smarter than the smartest white kids, but so long as on aggregate the IQ score was lower than the whites, there would be said to be a racial difference.
its not that poor people don't want their kids to be educated, it is that their environments are less developed institutionally to provide an enriched environment for their children. They can afford less toys for their children to engage with, and often have to work longer hours and have less time to dedicate to raising a child.
that is the million dollar question.
the studies I have seen controlled for such factors, so no, if one is persuaded by their evidence, there is some sort of innate racial difference.
My personal thoughts: There is no reason, a priori, to assume that there wouldn't be cognitive differences between races. There are physiological differences in alcohol tolerance, various adaptations to climates, skin colour, and even structural changes to the body that allow people that descend from various parts of Africa to excel at different types of running.
The evidence, as it exists, is compelling enough. They have done everything possible to control for cultural or economic factors, for racial biases and other such things, and sometimes they find the ~4 IQ point difference between racial groups. It is somewhat inconsistent, and, understandably, there are few labs doing studies into it.
mostly though, I would challenge the very basis of what is being proposed. While IQ does correlate strongly to some measures of success in society, that certainly doesn't mean that it represents what the common man would consider intelligence. And even at that, how noticeable is a 4 IQ difference?
The differences we see on a daily basis are assuredly based on American culture, where there are huge inequities in access to education between the rich and the poor, and worse even in minority communities. Aside from the institutions themselves, poverty creates a culture where parents, while acting more communally, have less time to devote to their children, especially when compared to the wealthy who often have jobs that allow them maternity leave.
I tend to agree with you, that racial differences in IQ scores reflect something, be it SES or racial biases in test taking, but there is certainly a strong body of evidence which points in the other direction.
there is some evidence that there is an innate difference.
also, genes are expected to play a large role in intelligence, or IQ rather, as scores are highly hereditary and stable over time. Though you are correct, the interaction with the environment is what is crucial, as it is what allows various genes to create more robust connections in the brain, facilitating greater information processing, etc.
genetics aside, i think it is rather tragic if you can't sympathize with the conditions of a poor black child in America. To think they have all of the advantages and opportunities as someone born in a family with more affluence is somewhat ridiculous, and to build a society upon the competition between these two types of individuals only leads to a cycle that I'm sure you are well aware of.
lol, or no, what am I saying, every hood thug made a conscious, informed decision to get into the life they did, forgoing their ample opportunity for work, education, or mentoring, ignoring the plethora of positive black role models, who coincidentally aren't making millions of dollars for white CEOs, and tip-toeing around the violence, racism and depression that come with life.
Like, for instance, there are studies where they will tape students, WHO KNOW EXACTLY WHY THEY ARE BEING TAPED, giving mock interviews to black and white participants, as if they were going to hire them. Even black students treated the black interviewee worse. There is a weapons bias, where people are more likely to associate weapons with the faces of black people than white people. Studies have found this replicates with black people.
To say the least, the difficulties surrounding black people in America have nothing to do with their genes.
/rant
lol, sorry, sort of got on a role
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Gender: Male Location: USA, Oklahoma. Pewpy balls.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: White men win a "discrimination" case.
Let me rephrase: If all things, except genetics, were equal, would black people still be dumber than the other races?
I think we're talking in circles, and it's really my fault.
What I mean:
No, there's no differences in cognitive ability. It's all nurture that makes the difference.
I had hotwheels...and maybe a few action figures. I didn't have many toys.
I played outside...and explored the world and made many mental notes...lot's of children do that. Bugs are fascinating.
That's all very interesting. So there really is a difference in race even when controlled for socio-economic condition....very interesting.
Of course I can sympathize...especially considering I had my roots in almost the lowest of conditions. But I what I don't sympathize with are those who try to use that as an excuse. (being born poor in a bad neighborhood.) I still think the system should be "work to get there" not "alter the system to your level".
I really want some major education reform, which is probably why I think this way.
The burden of proof that has to be met based on the majority opinion in this case is "can we be sued? and if so, can we lose?", not "does this test relate to the job or unfairly target a certain group?".
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
Bardock42 is a whimpering pussy now who lost his flare to debate vigorously and just spouts senseless and thinly veiled puns here and there. You nazi pr*ck. Get your balls back from whoever you sold them to, you fat f*ck. What happened to the manly, chubby German big mouth we once knew, who'd flatten ignorance with a solid argument? Now it's like Andy Dick meets John Candy. You hybrid beefcake. Suck my c*ck
I honestly think there probably wasn't any discrimination in this particular case, I just object to the wording in the court opinion and what it can be used for.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. The city could only have discarded the tests if it had been very likely that they would have lost a civil suit for discrimination. Now, i don't think that is necessarily bad, it is perhaps a warped view to laymen like me, but I think in theory, winning such a lawsuit would be, from a legal standpoint, equivalent to being discriminated against, so I don't think I fully agree with your assessment of that problem. If the city could have proven that the black firefighters could have won the suit, then the test would have been discriminatory against blacks and therefore the white and hispanic ones wouldn't have had a basis to sue over. It does make some sense to me. But if I understood correctly (and I might not have, since I didn't read every page) the court was under the assumption that either it is discriminatory against blacks or not, and if it isn't it is discriminatory to discard the results in favour of blacks, even though they have not been discriminated, no?
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Bardock42 is a whimpering pussy now who lost his flare to debate vigorously and just spouts senseless and thinly veiled puns here and there. You nazi pr*ck. Get your balls back from whoever you sold them to, you fat f*ck. What happened to the manly, chubby German big mouth we once knew, who'd flatten ignorance with a solid argument? Now it's like Andy Dick meets John Candy. You hybrid beefcake. Suck my c*ck
KMC Community Forums
Jul 2nd, 2009 08:24 PM
