since when do pirates and ninja fight at all? in a "real world scenario" ninja and pirates would almost never meet so why are we even discussing this?
guns first came to japan around 1543 and they were delivered by europeans. in the 1600's ninja started to die out as their tactics and skills became more and more useless. there-in lies the point. ninjas cant compete with the new technology offered by guns. their little darts and stars and what-not simply arent as formidable. that was the entire point of the last samurai... drunk white people with guns > japanese culture in its entirety. there werent even machine guns or full fledged canons. it was the single shot pistol and rifle that was enough to make ninja technology and mannerisms all but obsolete. whats the point in sneaking up on someone and throwing a peice of metal when you can tag them with a bullet from the saftey of a bush 70 feet away?
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Last edited by Ms.Marvel on Jul 23rd, 2009 at 06:36 AM
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It's called "using your imagination."
And, I disagree. Ninja missions would most likely end up sabotaging some sort of "pirate-like" warriors at some point. You do know that Japan has a HUGE amount of coast, right?
I think our definition of what constitutes a gun is where we disagree.
Killing someone with a projectile, while using gun powder, is what constitutes a gun, IMO.
The Japanese were using gunpowder well before the 1500s to kill each other.
I can't put a date to it....as i couldn't find anything.
And, no, the ninjas started to die out because they became useless as Japan became united. I posted it for everyone to read.
B-but...
I already said that they didn't use stars.
And, yes, they were more than enough. Using a gun would be the last thing a Ninja assassin would want to use when on a mission to asassinate a Samurai or someone of higher rank. A gun would be one of the worst things to use.
I don't suggest using a movie as an example of Ninja versus Pirates.
Also, they were not Ninjas. They were Samurai, the anti-thesis of Ninajs.
Logical fallacy. Why would a ninja carry a cannon, rifle, or a machine gun, to secretly kill someone? Does that even make sense? You know...stealth...hiding in the night. Using poison, deceit, etc. Do you even know what a real ninja's skill set is? It's not like naruto, for the most part.
They didn't use throwing stars.
More likely that the ninja would be the in the bushes, tagging someone with a poisoned dart or arrow, 70 feet away.
in my imagination the fight wouldnt play out in the scenario you think it will. and in my imagination i think its very likely that the pirates will go ahead and go in-land and attack a fortress for the lulz. its my imagination after all.
and im sure many of them ended up getting shot in the face as well if they did fight.
the only record i have of japan using gunpowder weapons before the 1600's is in cannons not personal firearms. so its an entirely different ball game. they used gun powder for artillery not anti-personnel. japan didnt majorly use gunpowder weapons like the pistol or rifle until after the ninja already began to
disappear.
i know. im looking at the same google results youre looking at.
and youre wrong. that one article which incidentally i read before i saw your link to it, states that. however every single article on the internet that is about shuriken says the complete opposite. ninja used shuriken. granted not all shuriken are star-shaped but they did throw sharp metal which were in the shape of a star and they were classified as shuriken. your source is inaccurate.
which is interesting because in todays world we assassinate people all the time even with guns and people still manage to do it undetected and discreetly. in fact even 200 years ago before silencers people were discreetly assassinate other people with guns. the ninja didnt assassinate with guns because they werent around when guns became popular.
but my point remains the same. japanese culture and fighting styles simply werent enough. do you honestly think that if ninja had still been around when the europeans took interest in japan it would have made any real difference?
its not a logical fallacy at all. stealth hiding in the night deceit etc. are all things that can be accomplished with a gun. you act liek stealthy assassinations arent possible with firearms.
incorrect.
thatd work against people who had no ranged weapons to speak of and were laying about doing nothing.
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Last edited by Ms.Marvel on Jul 23rd, 2009 at 07:14 AM
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Reality, using your imagination:
European Barbary pirates make their way to Japan in which Ninjas still carry out assassinations.
Pirates rob and pillage like made, using almost a guerrilla-like tactic at sea and on the docked ships.
The local Daiymo highers a ninja group to take them down.
The pirates find out.
The battle begins.
Right, a shot, which was a ball that had questionable accuracy at times, which also was a one fire deal and required some time to reload, would definitely take down a person that shouldn't have been seen to begin with. On top of that, this person has been trained to avoid gunfire, bow fire, and people in general.
Began to disappear is a gross over-exaggeration. Let's go with die out over the course of 200 years.
So why say Ninjas died out because guns made them useless when that isn't true?
I thought everyone knew that Ninjas didn't use throwing stars/Chinese stars/ninja stars and that it was a modern misrepresentation of the ninja that lead to the fallacious belief and even misnomer of calling it a 'ninja star."
Where is this evidence of yours?
Modern weaponry /= feudal Japan.
Also, firearms were quite popular in Japan very shortly after the Portuguese introduced them to the Japanese, or did you forget about mentioning that already?
I don't see how any of that negates the fact that using a flint lock pistol, rifle, or cannon, would be the shittiest thing to discreetly, quietly, and quickly assassinate someone in feudal Japan.
Any real difference in what?
And, you seem to still be missing why the ninjas fell out of use: peace.
You mean how all secret government agencies act just like Ninja clans with modern weapons? What are you referring to when you say "difference"?
In feudal Japan, not only would the big ass sound of a gun give away the assassin's position, so would the large ass amount of smoke (did you know that?)
Not to mention the inaccuracy problem with a ball.
Prove that at least one clan or ninja group used throwing stars, and I'll show you that they are the exception to the rule.
That's also how it would work, and probably how it worked primarily. They WERE assassins of the night, you know.
Speak for yourself.
The only thing I've used from teh internetz is the article I posted about ninjas to help choke off misconceptions and misrepresentations of what ninjas are capable of because it looked like people were going to give them ungodly abilites. Everything is off the top of the head.
That's good because your last reply was a bunch of strawman arguments that really didn't address most of my previous points. The only one I will concede is the "guns" argument. I grouped all gunpowder weapons together as "guns", which is correct, depending on the use of the word "gun" being used...but we both know that's not what I meant. I confused China's technology for Japan's, thinking that I was safe in assuming that the firearm technology spread to Japan before it spread to Europe. I was only partially correct in that, gunpowder and projectiles being employed with it, were correct.
Despite this, I still know a HUGE amount more about Japan than China. I am really weak on my Chinese history.
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Last edited by dadudemon on Jul 23rd, 2009 at 08:09 AM
There is a big lake, and then an island with a lot of forests and a medium sized village. There is a pirate ship with 50 pirates. There are 50 ninjas hiding in the islands. The ninjas can see the pirates but NOT vice versa. The pirate ship has guns and cannons.
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The ninjas could even just wait the pirates out in that case, as the island would seem to have more food stores.
So, like, the best pirates in the world were the English Navy, so at best, a pirate would be a competent hand to hand fighter, though nowhere close to a ninja, whose training is specifically close combat/hand-to-hand.
Ninjas trained as assassins, pirates trained to navigate ships, boat maintenance, cannon warfare, naval tactics etc.
I can't see how ninjas would ever fight pirates, nor do I think it would be very interesting. Either the pirates don't see it coming, or the ninjas are overwhelmed at a distance, based entirely on what you set as the starting conditions.
For instance, the pirates loosing a huge cannon bombardment of the shores of the island could do serious damage to the ninjas with no possibility of a counter-attack
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And oh yeah, the island isn't terribly large; let's just say 2 miles wide/long (about).
It might prove difficult to bombard a 2 by 2 mile area completely. Chances are they would have to disembark and attack the ninjas by land, in which case it is uncertain who would win.
I think that one on one a ninja would probably win. Firearms back in those days were rather unreliable, and the pirate would generally only really get one shot off, assuming that the gun doesn't malfunction. Although ninjas didn't use throwing stars in the same way that hollywood portrays them, they would still use them and other effective long range weapons to counter the pirate's guns. The thowing stars/blowguns/darts would probably be more accurate and you'd get more shots off than the pirate's gun, so the ninja has a better chance of survival. Close range I'm pretty sure that the ninja would be better skilled, but forgive me if I'm wrong...
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
no, that was my point. You really couldn't make a situation where one isn't just going to have the advantage. If the pirates have to come to land, they might as well be trained thugs, as they AREN'T land soldiers, but rather naval soldiers. The reverse is true if the ninjas have to come to water.
And the bombardment would be immensely effective, especially if they were going to land. They would probably do well to burn/siege as much of the forest as they could. Bombarding a landing point on the island would give them some safe room to move.
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
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It might be smart for the pirates to have half of the team go somewhat into the islands and for the rest to stay on the ship, and then the land team could draw the ninjas out only to be slaughtered by cannons.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
In this scenario the fact that ninjas are hiding and know the location of the clueless pirates would be a big advantage, but so would the pirates' cannons.
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
Democracy is the very definition of awesome.
Ha, no. I grew up watching every silly 80's ninja flick, if anything, I'm a ninja fanboy. But at least I'm able to separate fact from fiction.
Logically, they'd probably never meet. This is a "what if" scenario.
Ninjas were spies and information gatherers first and foremost, assassins when needed. Many a jobless samurai worked as a spy/assassin when times were hard. Still, guns, explosives and sheer ferocity wins here, ie technology wins here.
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Jul 23rd, 2009 06:33 AM
you act liek stealthy assassinations arent possible with firearms. 
What are you referring to when you say "difference"? 
