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i never said ADAM looked decisively inferior to superman, just that they have been portrayed as equals. as have marvel and superman, but there are times, like below, where marvel has been shown to be decisively above adam:
even adam's might is useless..... then he runs away. and this is after he stalemates superman. but i know there are others times where he appeared>marvel. it really is impossible to say any of the 3 is above the other imo, at least using their battles as proof.
the inconsistency to me comes from SUPERMAN, which is turn, makes it very hard to use his fights to accurately gauge the relative power levels of not only himself, but his opponent. i mean really, in one scene he is extinguishing STARS with his superbreath, creating suns using moons and physical force, pushing around planets like marbles, hurling people through time (feats no one else can touch) and sneezing away entire solar systems. the next..... he begins to tire holding up a single temple and his "best" blow barely phases adam. that's.... quite a discrepancy in displayed power level, imo. but it happened all the time. in another scene he struggles to hold an aircraft carrier, small meteors require his 'full power'. pc superman was all over the map regarding his power level so to see him struggle against adam isn't much of a surprise when he's struggled against toyman and his robotic creations.
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Last edited by leonidas on Oct 22nd, 2011 at 12:57 PM
^ So you're using ABC logic to suggest that PC Black Adam's problems with PC Captain Marvel suggest he could be inferior to PC Superman when between PC Black Adam and PC Superman, PC Black Adam has always been portrayed as equal or superior to PC Superman?
Not convinced. PC Black Adam is always equal or superior to PC Superman when they fight.
Don't see a reason to obfuscate the issue. Your problem seems to be the inconsistent overall power levels displayed by characters when performing individual feats. Had PC Captain Marvel guest-starred with PC Superboy when he was tugging planets on a chain, I'd have no doubt PC Captain Marvel would be tugging along his own chain of planets.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
adam has never, to my knowledge, been portrayed as being 'clearly' superior to supes. which battle are you referring to?
as far as tugging the planets--cm probably would have been alongside him. but he wasn't. so do we assume he CAN tug several planets? could he extinguish a star with his breath? could adam? who knows. what i DO know is superman has those feats and no one else does. and some of those feats are ludicrous. i also know he has some pretty silly, low showings. all that indicates to me that pc characters varied wildly in their depictions and for that reason trying to gauge their relative power levels becomes very difficult. i'm not really trying to convince you of anything, and there's no obfuscation whatsoever--imo adam/superman/marvel are all about equal. just that given feats, pc superman can and has been portrayed on a higher power level than either cm or adam.
The one where he's taking on both Supes and Cap. Given their feats, Thor and Mjolnir should be so physically powerful that Savage Hulk should never have a chance even in a physical fight. Yet ole Greenskin clearly does, as he just about stalemates him every time. And just because Savage Hulk gets stomped by a third party that is equal or lesser than Thor, i.e., Silver Surfer, doesn't mean that we should now consider Hulk lesser than Thor in a fight.
This is about a fight between the two. And we know from their fights that Hulk stalemates Thor. And we know from their fights that Black Adam is always equal or superior to Superman. Individual feats (especially in silly comics) and performances against third parties (via ABC logic) shouldn't change that.
Based on feats, their relative power is in doubt. Based on their actual fights against each other, it's much more apparent. And all things considered equal, when the inquiry is how they'd do in a fight against each other, our focus shouldn't stray far from their on-panel fights and be muddled by the inherent ridiculousness of the times.
I agree somewhat. But know that characters OFTEN job to other characters to create a story. What happens in a comic fight is hardly what will happen in a forum fight. This is because characters are to fight at their best (their A game) and not at a subpar or average performance that was shown in comics against someone.
Thor only hits hard when he whirls the hammer for a long time and then slams down. Thor, in many fights, does a lot of quick swings (have less power). So Savage Hulk surviving those blows aren't really good feats anyway.
Hulk stalemates Thor because of Thor's character. This is the same reason BA would seem to stalemate Superman. If Thor REALLY WANTED TO he could end Hulk quickly. But that is not his way. He is a warrior and relishes a fight. Superman on the other hand has mental blocks that prevent him from letting loose most of the time. BA, who is not good and doesn't hold back, is only equals to Superman, who holds back out of fear of killing.
Now don't get me wrong. Everyone in these tiers are capable of hurting each other with their blows. Strength and durability don't really matter much since for many characters they are similar in that aspect. But the use of other unique powers that a character can bring to the fight makes it an debate.
Given that Superman and BA are physical equals (I disagree) then Superman still wins because of his other powers.
IMO, Surfer at his best>>>Thor at his best. But that's just me.
Characters make fights, true. That's why ABC logic doesn't always work, because Plastic Man might make a good fight against Hulk due to his ability to absorb blunt force and various exotic attacks, but fare poorly against a Green Lantern, while that same GL will have problems with Hulk.
On the other hand, a characters history with other characters, and other feats should have weight.. We know Hulks been injured by far, far less than Mjolnir on numerous occasions by looking at his history.. Skaar skewering him with beams, for example. And I can name many, many more examples of Hulks low piercing damage.. So, if s thrown Mjolnir doesn't go through Hulk like it did against Worthy Thing, is that because Hulk is too durable for Mjolnir? And if that's so, does that make all examples where a lesser item goes through his skin PIS?
Slade stomping the JLA is widely considered blatant PIS. Would you rather we take such showings at face value, if a character consistently over-performs outside his weight class, against examples that proves this is merely a consistent outlier, because of writer or editorial bias?
For the record, I do think Captain Marvel and Black Adam have more than enough feats to prove that hanging with Superman isn't PIS, I'm simply arguing against the concept that because character X is consistently portrayed as = to character Y, that alone is proof the characters are evenly matched.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
actually, h1 ( ) said most of what i was going to say. the issue where he takes on both, supes admits their power levels are too close. supes may have been forced to take a knee, but he also concedes because he was afraid to harm innocents. if he weren't would it end the same? given his earlier feats, i'd say that's at the least questionable. which is why i bring in other feats--their fights are so close, i think it warrants looking at other factors to try and decide who would win. supes has been depicted as more powerful based on feats. and here, adam (disguised as superman) actually admits he doesn't have superman's full strength:
your thor/hulk analogy isn't quite the same imo. i imagine you think thor can beat hulk in a forum setting? i think most agree that if he fought as he would fight in a forum, thor kills hulk pretty easily, 10/10. (well, maybe not this current hulk....) it's because of his character that he doesn't. or do you disagree?
staying in character, i agree, ba/supes is pretty damn even. remove cis and i think kal would take him. abc logic rarely holds because of the way characterization varies from writer to writer, and because of plot requirements. if we forego those things, as forum rules say, then i think superman has the edge here, slight though it may be.
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
going over some of what was in this thread, i realize that my post may actually have some contradictions. i was speaking of the inconsistent depictions of pc superman and that i dislike using him in battles because of that. then i go ahead and say that at his best i think he should win. oi.
i agree odg--in their battles, supes/ba are near equals. the thing is, feats would seem to say that superman should be better against, not JUST ba, but against a lot of people he battles. i suppose ultimately i am saying that PIS was much more the norm in the pc world. as a result, it makes it hard to gauge what is and isn't pis as regards pc superman, and that includes his battles imo. does he job to vllains? is blowing out a star pis? or is getting rocked by toyman's giant robot clown pis?
After a long tireing fight both contestants are bruised up and exhausted, black adam them yells shazam and is instantly healed and back at full capacity.
Ok, I'm not saying that you're making a problem out of nothing. Obviously, I completely agree that PC Superman possesses ridiculously high feats and low feats that are difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile with each other. But while this problem looms especially large for PC Superman, it's not like other characters don't share this issue. Does Thor job to Savage Hulk? Is containing a 1/5th universe destroying blast pis? Or is getting knocked unconcious by a sniper bullet pis?
I think we deal with these issues all the time with other characters. And when the outliers are that much more divergent, consistent fight portrayals end up being more informative, if not determinative. It's not like Black Adam beat Superman with one measly bolt of magic lightning in one instance and, in another, got blown across the galaxy with a simple superbreath the next fight. If it were, then we'd be in trouble. But, here, it's not. I disagree. No, Thor cannot end him quickly, you know. And he never could.
That's more than arguable based on individual feats or resorting to ABC logic against other third party characters, e.g., Surfer > Hulk = Thor, or Surfer > BRB = Thor. But based on their actual fights, Thor is usually portrayed as his equal or superior. A one-time encounter (especially one that is short), I might agree. But I don't see any reason to argue against it when we're dealing perrenial matchups (like the ones we're discussing). It's what we've seen in comics. It's what we'll likely see in comics again when the characters match up next time. Boiling it down, I think arguing against it is just arguing against the comics.
If Surfer was to surpass Mjolnir's absorbing abilities, should we assume that Surfer can ditch more power that a bomb that can bust a quarter of the universe?
I don't think BA should get the win over PC Supes's incredibly high feats unless the rest of his showings allow us to consider him at least at the same stupid level.
^ PC Black Adam's feats might not get the win over PC Superman's feats. PC Black Adam either is superior to or stalemates PC Superman in a fight though.
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Oct 22nd, 2011 12:52 PM
) said most of what i was going to say. the issue where he takes on both, supes admits their power levels are too close. supes may have been forced to take a knee, but he also concedes because he was afraid to harm innocents. if he weren't would it end the same? given his earlier feats, i'd say that's at the least questionable. which is why i bring in other feats--their fights are so close, i think it warrants looking at other factors to try and decide who would win. supes has been depicted as more powerful based on feats. and here, adam (disguised as superman) actually admits he doesn't have superman's full strength:
