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Home » Comic Book Forums » Comic Book 'Respect' Forum » The Juggernaut...show some respect! (Redux)

The Juggernaut...show some respect! (Redux)
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juggernaut74
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I wonder if Colossus is going to get some of the power and that's what they mean he's fighting alone "or is he" thing going on there.


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Old Post Dec 17th, 2014 04:46 AM
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juggernaut74
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Some preview images from the first issue of the Juggernaut arc:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?...le&id=57491


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Old Post Dec 20th, 2014 04:41 AM
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Ptr_Grifin
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Interesting to see one of the older variations of Cyttorak there.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2014 02:55 PM
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juggernaut74
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Is that Black Tom in that 2nd page?


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2014 03:14 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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I'm doubting it. It may just be a Doc Strange villain. I think the panel may just show Strange using the bands of Cyttorak.


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Old Post Dec 21st, 2014 04:04 PM
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-K-M-
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Is that Black Tom in that 2nd page?


Baron Mordo


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2015 06:37 PM
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juggernaut74
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Man I hope Cain gets the power back.


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Old Post Jan 1st, 2015 07:43 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by juggernaut74
Man I hope Cain gets the power back.


You and me both. I don't know why they can't just let Cain keep the full power.


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2015 04:49 AM
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Newjak
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Yeah same here.


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Old Post Jan 4th, 2015 07:08 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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I think they screwed up when they made it that the wielder has to do evil things to keep the full power. I liked it better in the comic with Dr. Strange when Cy said he didn't care if the power was used for good or evil.


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Old Post Jan 5th, 2015 03:43 AM
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KingD19
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The Octessence aside from the Exemplar plot have been overwhelmingly offhanded evil transdimensional beings. Their avatars aside from Cain haven't showed up in years so yeah to have it that way seems like they just wanted to shoehorn the beginning of this storyline.

Old Post Jan 5th, 2015 03:47 AM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I think they screwed up when they made it that the wielder has to do evil things to keep the full power. I liked it better in the comic with Dr. Strange when Cy said he didn't care if the power was used for good or evil.


It is like that though. The wielder can do good things with it and also possess the full power of the gem. Remember, the only reason Colossus was so powerful with the gem was due to his consistency of fighting, even during the time of fighting the good fight. Colossus was said to be more powerful than Cain with the gem and that was due to him fighting for good. Cyttorak likes a rampage, no matter what side the fight is taking place on. Good or evil.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2015 01:22 AM
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Ptr_Grifin
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by carver9
It is like that though. The wielder can do good things with it and also possess the full power of the gem. Remember, the only reason Colossus was so powerful with the gem was due to his consistency of fighting, even during the time of fighting the good fight. Colossus was said to be more powerful than Cain with the gem and that was due to him fighting for good. Cyttorak likes a rampage, no matter what side the fight is taking place on. Good or evil.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Throughout Colossus's tenure as Juggernaut, the X-men were constantly in fights with the Avengers and Colossus, on more than one occasion, had talked about becoming a monster. His power only increased when he gave in to the urge to destroy regardless of what the outcome would be, which he had often. Cyttorak even mentions liking him because of the destruction he was causing despite his backsliding. Destruction is never a heroic act. When not fighting the X-men, he was on the Extinction Team. I believe it was controversial even in Cyclops's eye.

I don't think he was said to be more powerful than Cain. Cain never had any stated broken bones when at full power, like Colossus had. When Cy talked about giving him so much, I think he was just saying, "I"ve allowed you to have this immense power", despite Colossus 'trying' to be a good guy. I believe Cain has had the full blessing as well. He didn't need to demon-hulk out like Pete though.

As in New Excalibur, the previous Juggernaut wanted to do good, so Cy had Cain kill him in order to gain the full power. Retcon hell there, all around. Maybe describing what Cy wants as just evil may be much, but saving people is not his MO.


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Last edited by Ptr_Grifin on Jan 6th, 2015 at 03:06 AM

Old Post Jan 6th, 2015 03:03 AM
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carver9
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I'm gonna have to disagree with you. Throughout Colossus's tenure as Juggernaut, the X-men were constantly in fights with the Avengers and Colossus, on more than one occasion, had talked about becoming a monster. His power only increased when he gave in to the urge to destroy regardless of what the outcome would be, which he had often. Cyttorak even mentions liking him because of the destruction he was causing despite his backsliding. Destruction is never a heroic act. When not fighting the X-men, he was on the Extinction Team. I believe it was controversial even in Cyclops's eye.

I don't think he was said to be more powerful than Cain. Cain never had any stated broken bones when at full power, like Colossus had. When Cy talked about giving him so much, I think he was just saying, "I"ve allowed you to have this immense power", despite Colossus 'trying' to be a good guy. I believe Cain has had the full blessing as well. He didn't need to demon-hulk out like Pete though.

As in New Excalibur, the previous Juggernaut wanted to do good, so Cy had Cain kill him in order to gain the full power. Retcon hell there, all around. Maybe describing what Cy wants as just evil may be much, but saving people is not his MO.


Colossus having broken bones tells us how powerful his foe was, not the opposite and Colossonaut also withstood things that probably would've folded Cain, and this Is before going demon mode. Like his showing against the Celestial. Withstood a blast point blank. Him TANKING hits from Rulk. Thing pounding on his face doing nothing to him. Yes, Jugs has been affected by less.

Cyttorak wasn't talking about the demon form when he brought up Colossus though and when he brought up destruction, he was using it as past tense. A hero does cause destruction, especially and powerful one. Colossus fought for the good the entire time he had that power and he was just an dad's powerful, if not, more powerful than Cain. He had a couple of low showings but overall, he was physically an elite...and could go beyond that. If the power of Cy is only blessed to those that does evil deeds, Colossus would've been a weakling, and In this case, he wasn't.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2015 04:50 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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You didn't really bring up any good points. When Colossus activated the Juggernaut power, it wasn't to do good, it was because he wanted to destroy things/fight just to fight and gave into becoming a monster. This is brought up several times. One instance he said he didn't need the power, he just wanted to use it. When he fought Rulk, he gave into the demon and eventually noticed the destruction to his home he was causing and depowered himself so Rulk could KO him.

The Thing fight is a poor example. Cain easily beat Grim with a simple 3 punch combo, while Colossus seamed to have some trouble.

Regardless if a hero causes damage, Colossolnaut wanted to cause destruction. In his fight with Kuurth, he knocked down a building and could hear screams. He commented how he didn't care and just wanted to keep pushing forward. At that point he didn't fight Kuurth because it was the heroic thing to do, he did it because he was addicted to the power and wanted more. At the end of the Kuurth fight, he decided to push Kuurth out of the city. I believe that is the type of 'backsliding' Cy was referring to.

When Cain fought Hulk in WWH, he initially wanted to "help" Charles. He was still depowered and got his ass kicked. Only when he admitted to Cy and himself that he just wanted to do it for himself, did he match Hulk.

Colossus definitlety did not withstand things Cain would have folded to. Overall, I think Cain was at least as powerful as Pete was.


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Old Post Jan 6th, 2015 05:39 PM
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juggernaut74
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I think Colossus in demon mode was more powerful than Cain. Mostly because of him already being Class 100 before he got the gem. The beating he gave Red Hulk was more than Cain could have done imo.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2015 02:47 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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I kind of associated his demon mode with 8th Day Juggernaut. I'm of the opinion Cain during the 8th Day arc was more focused/drawing on more power and therefor stronger. Basically, if he weren't always written as simple minded, he could use the power more efficiently and reach those levels again.

Albeit, at that point in Rulks career, he was nowhere near the levels he used to be at. Punisher put a knife through his sternum for crying out loud.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2015 03:20 PM
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juggernaut74
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I kind of associated his demon mode with 8th Day Juggernaut. I'm of the opinion Cain during the 8th Day arc was more focused/drawing on more power and therefor stronger. Basically, if he weren't always written as simple minded, he could use the power more efficiently and reach those levels again.

Albeit, at that point in Rulks career, he was nowhere near the levels he used to be at. Punisher put a knife through his sternum for crying out loud.
The writer of the Colossonaut idea stated the gem affected Colossus differently than it did Cain. We saw 8th day Juggy once while we saw Demon Colossus a few times. I think it was a side effect of being a mutant with 100 ton strength before the gem. Plus Cyttorak called Piotr his favorite avatar and that's why he gave him more power or something like that.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2015 04:10 PM
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Ptr_Grifin
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Yeah, I remember reading that it affected Piotr differently, but I'm not 100% certain Cy gave him more power. I know I keep referencing the two green mail snipits with the two writers saying Cain can draw on infinite power, but there is those plus the current Juggernaut arc writer saying that Cain has the chance to become on of the strongest if not the strongest on earth again.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2015 04:31 PM
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juggernaut74
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Cain was one of the strongest on earth. Just not as strong as Colossonaut was imo. I actually recall an interview where the same was said of Colossonaut actually of him being the strongest on earth as well.


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Old Post Jan 7th, 2015 04:54 PM
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