in the philosophy of science and how research programmes are constructed, proof of negatives, ie: unicorns don't exist, man X isn't tall, etc., are not allowed for reasons like, you might have missed a unicorn. Scientists, when doing science, by definition, cannot be finding evidence against the existence of God. The best that can be said is that their findings are not congruent with empirical statements found in religious literature, such as the age of the earth.
Scientists have gone out of their way to test things like the Mormon claims of genealogy, which is closer to what we are talking about, but iirc, it was done with the mormon church's consent (maybe even at BYU...) and not with the specific intent of "debunking" the religious claim.
From the scientists I know, and this is those mainly in behavioural science where religion is relevant to some programmes, they are not religious themselves, but seem to spend no time at all on the question. I'd think you would have a better argument if you were saying Liberal arts and philosophy professors go out of their way to disprove religion, scientists have more pressing concerns.
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
Gender: Male Location: al-Jumhuuriyya al-Yamaniyya
And to understand cause and effect at anything beyond the most basic level you usually need massively complex mathematics, a lifetime of experience or both.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
I think science is very simple. We have discovered many things, including how to do proper research and what types of questions are answerable through the scientific method, but at its core, science is not complex at all.
and technically, they predict causality to test models built through the analysis of many studies pertaining to the phenomena in question. What happens is only part of it, they have to build a narrative based on the best data about why it is happening as well. Science is not simply the reporting of statistics
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
and such is what I get for taking the time to participate in a thread and answer the points/questions you raise seriously...
__________________ He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
I have to interject here. Backsliding Christians are still saved. That is a gift that you can not lose. Too much evidence in Scripture support that doctrine. Besides, after the Crucifixtion, Peter and the other disciples went fishing(literaly) instead of carrying on with the Great Commission given them. They backslid until Christ appeared to them and reminded them of what they were called to do. Did Peter and the others lose their salvation? No. Scripture does not indicate anything like that.
I will say that some people do profess Christ, and never live the way they should..even from the moment of conversion. Now, those people were NEVER converted, as you could see by their lack of "fruit". Christ says that you can know true believers by their "fruit", or "works". If someone says he/she was converted, and still lives the same as before he/she was converted, then that person made a false confession of faith..and were never saved to begin with. However, it is possible to show fruit..and then lose faith and give up. Scripture is full of instances like that.
__________________ "What hurts the most is bein' so close, and havin' so much to say, and watchin' you walk away. And never knowin' what could've been, and not seein' that lovin' you is what I was tryin' to do."
The point being, that if random practicioners of any given profession are not more or less actively trying to disprove the existnace of god, then saying "scientists are trying to disprove god" is as accurate as saying "garbage collectors are trying to disprove god."
ie. NEITHER statement is accurate.
Even if you accept by some delusion that MORE are, its clearly not a majority. The only way you can reach such a conclusion is by percieving the mere presence of deduced fact as an affront to god.
Not really...
...especially since everyhting can be construed to have a cause and an effect.
Gender: Male Location: al-Jumhuuriyya al-Yamaniyya
I was referring to ushome's claim that a person who becomes Christian and then loses faith was never a Christian at all.
How would you define "fruit" and "works"?
But more importantly is a person who does, I assume, good deeds as an atheist or Jew or Hindu any less deserving of salvation? Good works strike me as more important than religion.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
I wasn't directing my post at you. I just quoted your post to base my argument about what he said. I didn't feel like looking up the reference you were referring to.
Fruits are just the works that Christians perform. In essence, it refers to preaching the gospel, living a moral life, helping others. In New Testament times, it also referred to performing miracles, casting out devils, speaking in tongues, etc.. However, those things are not done today. I'll explain more about that if you want me to, but I'm not gonna go into detail about that. So, Fruits are just signs that someone is a "true" Christian. They follow Christ by doing His will.
As far as your other question, "works" have nothing to do with salvation. It doesn't matter if you're an atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, or even Christian...you can't earn salvation based on works.
The Bible says that salvation is a GIFT of God, not of WORKS, lest any man should boast. Confessing Christ as your Saviour is the ONLY way to salvation according to the Bible. A man can devote his life to nothing but good deeds, but that is not enough to earn salvation. Like I said, you can't EARN salvation. Salvation is freely given(GIFT) to all that believe and accept Christ as his/her Saviour.
Now, works are important. Christ does ask us to follow His commandments, attend Church, and live moral lives. Not living a Christ-like life is SIN to a Christian, and it is viewed negatively by Christ. However, it has no bearing on salvation....only in the REWARDS a believer receives on the day of judgment. According to the Bible, the believer has to stand in judgment, just as the non-believer. A Christian will be judged not on Salvation, since Christ already paid the debt of SIN for him/her, rather a Christian's judgment is based on the works he/she commited themselves to do as a Christian. The Bible says faithful believers will receive crowns to cast at the feet of Christ on the day of judgment...lazy Christians will receive no crowns and will be greatly embarrassed on that day of judgment. Scripture also hints that faithful believers will be given important responsiblilites in the heavenly kingdom. A lazy Christian will not be appointed to those responsibilities, although he does get to enjoy Heaven. In essence, works are important to a Christian not only because it is what he/she COMMITTED to do when he/she recieved salvation, but it is also important in Heaven when Christ designates responsibilites to His believers.
__________________ "What hurts the most is bein' so close, and havin' so much to say, and watchin' you walk away. And never knowin' what could've been, and not seein' that lovin' you is what I was tryin' to do."
Because any time you abide by a lifestyle that denies your core nature you're going to slip up, be it being insanely religious and strict or pretending your straight or writing with your off hand.
__________________ Land of the free, home of the brave...
Do you think we will ever be saved?
In this land of dreams find myself sober...
Wonder when will it'll all be over...
Living in a void when the void grows colder...
Wonder when it'll all be over?
Will you be laughing when it's over?
KMC Community Forums
Sep 26th, 2009 04:02 PM
I play guitar, sing & write songs. Listen to my music 
"What hurts the most is bein' so close, and havin' so much to say, and watchin' you walk away. And never knowin' what could've been, and not seein' that lovin' you is what I was tryin' to do."
